Love the smell of ozone in the afternoon
Posted on 03/25/2009 1:14:14 AM PDT by OPREV
Nineteen hundred and seventy five years ago, This is the discussion that went on between Jesus and his disciples -
Mat 24:3 As Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him in private. "Tell us when all this will be," they asked, "and what will happen to show that it is the time for your coming and the end of the age."
Mat 24:4 Jesus answered, ....
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky; and all the peoples of the land will weep as they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 The great trumpet will sound, and he will send out his angels to the four corners of the earth, and they will gather his chosen people from one end of the world to the other.
And the most important part ----
Mat 24:34 Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.
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Jesus told the disciples he would come back and take them to heaven in their lifetime. If he didn't come back, then, he lied.
Another translation of verse 34
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till ALL these things be accomplished.
Jesus told the disciples that their generation would not pass away, until he came back and took them to heaven.
Jesus came back, in the 1st century, like he said he would, and, his angels gathered the elect and they went back to heaven. Which means, we live in the millenium.
Rev 20:4 ...and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, ... and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The Greek word used for the "thousand years" is chilioi. Chilioi is a plural word, meaning, 2000, or more. Thus, the millenium would be 2000 or more years.
And we would be at this point in history -
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.
And the next thing we would see is, the Bride coming out of Heaven
Rev 21:9 And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were laden with the seven last plagues; and he spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
Jesus came back & the early church left, with him. The rapture is past, the beast & false prophet also, the two witnesses are long gone, as are the 144,000. We live at the very end of history, when Satan is let loose, the armies from the North attack God's people, fire from the sky comes down and kills them, and there is a new heaven and new earth. And the final act is the Bride coming out of heaven. And then it's over. :)
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I can't agree Jeff. To me the Thessalonians scriptures point to a future gathering. God tells us the day of Christ won't arrive until the man of sin, the wicked one is revealed. That isn't an emperor but is the main character we fight against. Emperors come and go...but this one will be worshipped as God...sit in the Temple of God...pretend to be God.
That hasn't happened. I do think what that means is this wicked one, pretends to be God by "sitteth in the Temple," the Temple being Christ. To me this is saying he will sit in a body that looks and acts like Christ, not in a literal building.
One of the key factors here is, concerning the wicked man of sin...."The Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:" [2:8] That hasn't happened either.
In the time frame you are placing His second coming ....none of that has happened yet. In reading various scriptures I can see why you feel as you do but to me there are other ways to understand them that lead to a different conclusion. I'll keep looking for some others.
Revelation wasn't written in 90. It was written in 65. Were you there? You see any Roman writings about Jesus raising the dead? The whole land covered in darkness and the earthquake when he died? And then all the dead coming back to life after that? How about all the miracles the Apostles did? Any Romans write about that? They hated Christians. Of course they're not going to write about any of this stuff. 0_o
Read Tacitus' Book of Histories V (Start with 1 for a general overview of what was going on in the empire back then).
I don't think you were there either, and I was talking about 1 John which was written about the same time as the Gospel and Revelation - AD 90. Somewhere between 81 A.D. and 96 AD, the Apostle John was banished in Patmos by the emperor Domitian, kinda late for your rapture theory friend. Go and re-read Revelation again and see where he was when he wrote it.
You see any Roman writings . . . .
You clearly do not know what ANF stands for - go back and do your studies in a little more detail, then you can lecture me about Tacitus.
Love the smell of ozone in the afternoon
Princes aren't the ones in charge. They are all subject to the King. They don't do anything without the King's permission. Regardless of what it looks like, it is the King running the show.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matt. 28)For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. (1 Cor. 15:25)
Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, (Heb. 8:1)
Even a straight line appears crooked to a drunk.
But would the Rapture have to wait until everyone selected was alone, so others wouldn't see them disappear? Otherwise, it would surely have been noted. Camels wandering around with no driver? I'm joking a bit, but it seems unlikely to me.
How would the two witnesses' bodies be seen around the world then, also? It is only today that such a thing would be possible.
LOL...Yes it can (that was a good one) but I don't drink and when I read I don't attempt to explain away what is clearly written.
Until conclusive evidence to the contrary is unearthed, yes.
Papias on Mark and Matthew (c 130 CE),
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
As for Matthew, he made a collection in Hebrew of the sayings and each translated them as best they could.
Irenaeus, around the year 180 gave the first
historically documented list of the
four gospels and their authors: Matthew published his gospel among the Hebrews in their own tongue,
Early Christian tradition unanimously attributed this gospel to the authorship of Matthew the apostle, the former tax-collector of Capernaum, whose call it records in 9:9 (Mark and Luke call him Levi). There was also a persistent tradition that it was written originally not in Greek but in Hebrew or Aramaic. Both of these traditions are doubted by most modern scholars.The Greek of the gospel as we know it does not read like ‘translation Greek’, and the close literary relationship of Matthew with the (Greek) gospels of Mark and Luke makes its origin in any other language unlikely. It is quite possible that Christians in the first few centuries AD were familiar with a Hebrew or Aramaic work which was traditionally associated with Matthew, but unlikely that it was our gospel. Papias, the earliest writer to mention Matthew’s writing, attributes to him a compilation of ‘sayings’ in Hebrew or Aramaic, and some believe that he was referring not to the gospel we know but to one of its sources (perhaps the source ‘Q’ which many believe was used by the authors of Matthew and Luke; see the relevant section in ‘Reading the gospels’). But Papias’ statement is too brief to be clear, and its original context is unknown.
If it is improbable that Matthew’s gospel was written in Hebrew or Aramaic, can we take the other aspect of early tradition, the identity of the author as Matthew the apostle, any more seriously? Or does Papias’ statement suggest that this tradition arose in connection with a document other than our gospel? We cannot be sure, but the writers of the early Christian centuries offer us no other candidate for authorship, and a tradition which is both early and unanimous should not be simply assumed to be false unless the nature of the book itself makes it clearly inappropriate. (New Testament Commentary Survey)
The key summary is the statement, “But Papias’ statement is too brief to be clear, and its original context is unknown.”
While is is possible that Matthew wrote certain sayings of Jesus down in Aramaic (Papias refers to these as logia), those sayings have not been preserved by the Church. The gospel itself does not bear the marks of translation from Hebrew/Aramaic to Greek. Matthew's Greek reads much like that of Mark and Luke. Also, the majority of Matthew's OT quotations are from the LXX. It would seem remarkable that a translator would turn from Matthew's Aramaic account of the OT passages and copy a translation from another document entirely.
Other than the somewhat ambiguous comments of Papias, there is no record of a Hebrew gospel of Matthew. Nothing has come down to the Church. Irenaeus was familiar with the writing of Papias and may very well just be mimicking his comments.
Bottom line here is that the comments of Papias and Irenaeus hardly constitute conclusive evidence of an original Hebrew/Aramaic gospel of Matthew.
If you were intellectually open to understanding,shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
I would recommend that you view this two hour video by Nehemia GordonThe Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus
Yeshua's teachings, which supposedly form the basis for Western Christianity, are now filtered through 2000 years of traditions born in ignorance of the land, language, and culture of the Bible.The issues over which Yeshua wrestled with the Pharisees are simply not understood by modern Christians; nor are his most important instructions followed by those who claim to be his disciples.
Former Pharisee, Nehemia Gordon, a Dead Sea Scrolls scholar and Semitic language expert, explores the ancient Hebrew text of the Gospel of Matthew from manuscripts long hidden away in the archives of Jewish scribes.
Gordon's research reveals that the more "modern" Greek text of Matthew, from which the Western world's versions were translated, depicts "another Jesus" from the Yeshua portrayed in the ancient Hebrew version of Matthew. Gordon explains the life-and-death conflict Yeshua had with the Pharisees as they schemed to grab the reins of Judaism in the first century, and brings that conflict into perspective for both Jew and Christian alike.
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explores the ancient Hebrew text of the Gospel of Matthew from manuscripts long hidden away in the archives of Jewish scribes.
Yeah, sure. And Jos. Smith saw golden tablets.
Is there any independent scholarship to confirm Mr. Gordon's take on what he thinks he found?
review his CV
I did. Nothing remarkable. I've seen UFOlogists with better.
He's fairly young. Converted from Orthodox Judaism to Karaite Judaism, which numbers around 30,000 or so. He seems well-known within the community but largely unknown outside. He has one DVD to his credit. Any other significant writings?
It seems rather thin to overturn 2000 years of Christian scholarship by thousands of researchers and theologians.
What other scholarship is there to confirm his thesis?
Michael Rood and Nehemiah Gordon are attempting to present the Shem Tov version of Matthew as an accurate, and original representation of the Gospel of Matthew. Shem Tov's "Matthew", or Shem Tob's Matthew as some call it, which textual critics will tell you, is nothing more than an altered medieval text, which is a corrupt copy of the Latin text, which was originally copied from the Greek. Most legitimate textual critics have all but ignored this middle age manuscript. Just imagine the telephone game being played by those who do not believe in Christ while supposedly "translating" the Shem Tov, with the result being a third generation altered copy.The truth is that uninformed believers are being led by unbelievers to accept an altered anti-Christian version of Matthew that was included in the writing titled "Even Bohan" or "The Touchstone." This document was authored by Shem Tov, an unbelieving anti-Christian Jewish writer who some have referred to as a theologian, who resided in Spain during the fourteenth century. His copy of Hebrew Matthew has anti-Christian polemical commentary by him throughout the text. (Raiders of the Lost Book Equals Raiders of Nothing of Value)
Clearly the author has not read the book.shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach AdonaiAs it reads as an ad hominem attack as opposed to a review of the content.
What book? Are you referring the Shem Tov version of Matthew?
They will be seen around the world because of today's technology but also because they will be killed in different locations around the world...there are two groups of witnesses, not two literal entities and the event won't just be in Jerusalem.
But would the Rapture have to wait until everyone selected was alone, so others wouldn't see them disappear?
Their death and ascension marks the end of this age. The Scriptures tell us that "their enemies beheld them." [Revelation 11:12]
If you would have reviewed the video, you would have discovered:
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
I missed one other point:shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach AdonaiHow the Second Temple Era Pharisees created
Traditions which directly impugned the the Word of G-d.Yah'shua is rebuking them for creating manmade
Tradition which impugn the Word of G-d.There are modern day Pharisees who cling
to 1684 year old manmade Traditions
which impugn the Word of G-d.
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