Posted on 01/04/2009 8:07:31 PM PST by Stourme
THE CATHOLIC BIBLE
Holding the "Douay" Roman Catholic Version of the Bible aloft in my hand, I ask, "Do YOU accept THIS Bible as the Word of God?" For reasons best known to themselves, the Catholic Truth Society have published their Version of the Bible in a very short, stumpy form. This Version is a very odd proportion of the numerous Versions in the market today. The Christian questioner is taken aback. "What Bible is that?" he asks. "Why, I thought you said that there was only ONE Bible!" I remind him. "Y-e-s," he murmurs hesitantly, "but what Version is that?" "Why, would that make any difference?" I enquire. Of course it does, and the professional preacher knows that it does. He is only bluffing with his "ONE Bible" claim.
The Roman Catholic Bible was published at Rheims in 1582, from Jerome's Latin Vulgate and reproduced at Douay in 1609. As such the RCV (Roman Catholic Version) is the oldest Version that one can still buy today. Despite its antiquity, the whole of the Protestant world, including the "cults"* condemn the RCV because it contains seven extra "books" which they contemptuously refer to as the "apocrypha" i.e. of DOUBTFUL AUTHORITY. Notwithstanding the dire warning contained in the Apocalypse, which is the last book in the RCV (renamed as "Revelation" by the Protestants), it is "revealed":
". . . If any man shall add to these things (or delete) God shall add unto him the plagues written in this Book." (Revelation 22:18-19)
But who cares! They do not really believe! The Protestants have bravely expunged seven whole books from their Book of God! The outcasts are:
The Book of Judith
The Book of Tobias
The Book of Baruch
The Buck of Esther, etc.
* This disparaging title is given by the orthodox to Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh Day Adventists and a thousand other sects and denominations with whom they do not see eye to eye.
The Second Coming will happen when we come face-to-face with the risen Christ. Whether it is when we come to Him or He comes to us, it is the same.
I especially enjoy the “Buck of Esther.” Right about now I’d enjoy all the bucks I could get (or hold onto.)
I once was blind, but now I see.
I’m not exactly sure what part of my response to P-Marlowe illustrates circular reasoning to you. Perhaps you can illuminate me. If you are speaking about the faith requiring faith to establish it in the mind of the faithful, I don’t know of any faith that doesn’t require such a leap of logic. And if every point of practice and doctrine could be established as historically accurate, it would not be a “faith” but a “fact”.
That the Bible is the Word of God is and has to be accepted purely by faith. We have no original manuscript of the Bible, nor verification that the writings were actually done by those who claimed it, nor assurance that even if originally written by them, what we have now are faithful copies. We have instead thousands of fragments of the Bible, each differing from the other. No one who follows the Bible can accept it as genuinely the Word of God except by faith that God preserved it as such. No one can accept doctrines such as infant baptism, holy communion, last rites, Mary’s place in the hereafter, appointment of saints, the granting of priesthood to women or gays or limiting it to men, the Church Age or end of the Church Age, the rapture, etc., etc., except by faith that the doctrine is contained in one way or another in the scriptures or tradition, or is somehow alluded to by the Church Fathers (and then you must have faith that the Church Fathers received their teachings pure and undefiled from the Apostles).
Every Christian, if he or she looks closely and is honest, must admit that much of what they do or believe is purely a matter of faith that those doctrines and practices are approved by God. Nor can it ever be different until the Second Coming. Until then, if it is from God, it requires faith. Most of Christendom has faith that the Bible is unerrantly true and was preserved as such from the beginning, even as they acknowledge the differences in manuscripts and canon such as raised in this thread and argue amongst themselves how the scripture should be interpreted. Most of Christendom accepts by faith that the strife among the sects prior to Nicea was resolved in the proper manner, that the “true faith” won out and the losers were heretics. That the early Church facts are not established is illustrated by the various sects of Christianity today.
Yet when Mormons say they have faith the Book of Mormon is true, having studied the book and compared it to the Bible and prayed about it, they are ridiculed. And when they claim the Lord still speaks today through a living prophet, they are ridiculed. It is quite understandable but the faith of Mormons in unprovable claims is no more than exists in Christendom as a whole. We all have to accept many, many major tenets and doctrines by faith and not by knowledge. Nor will it ever be different until the Lord comes to end our opportunity to come to Him of our own free will. Then every point of the Lord’s faith will be fact and all will have to acknowledge Him. Until then, He gives us information and inspiration and bids us seek Him by divine revelation.
Your skepticism of Mormonism is natural but just because a faith has long existed, makes it no less “faith” than fact.
Every single word, yes.
By “thriving”, I mean growing and showing fruits of the spirit and following the Lord’s admonition to take the gospel to all the world. I don’t think the LDS offshoots illustrate that. For example, the Community of Christ, which has existed almost as long as the original LDS Church has perhaps 300,000 members while the LDS Church has around 13 million and continues to be one of the fastest growing churches in the world. Most if not all the other offshoots are more radical or fundamental and tend to isolate themselves in enclaves and let the world go to ruin in their minds.
Great post!
Check out Hebrews 1:1
Got a link to prove that statement?
Why do you think a Bald Eagle has a white head?
Gal 1:6-8; Rev 22:18-19; Heb 1:1-4; and a number of other verses are used to understand the Word of God had been communicated in past generations and in fragments by various manners to the prophets of the Abrahamic line, and most recently by Jesus Christ Himself.
The tradition also was written down in the books now understood as the canon of Scripture. It is also noted that once so recorded, those who recorded it also became under its authority as His Word. This same principle was used by the Old Testament Hebrew Prophets, namely that their Prophecy was held not only to the scrutiny of truth, but also could not violate the Word of God previously given by the Prophets.
One check of the veracity of Scripture and Prophecy is to check and see if it indeed fulfills and is consistent with the Prophecies given by Moses. They might elaborate for a particular generation the past Prophecy, but in no ways may deny or conflict it, and this applies not only to man, but to angels as well. So strong are these cursings of those who were false, that they also applied to the same apostles who wrote the Scripture as with Paul in Galatians 1:6-8. Even the men who wrote the Scripture were not above these requirements.
2nd Tim 3:16-17 indicates that all these things that were so written were SUFFICIENT for all good works. This doesn't mean there might be additional good Word, because not all the words of Christ were recorded, but it does give us a set of known verifiable truthful expressions of His Word which is adequate for us to perform His Plan as He has provided.
Additionally, those who are influenced by dreams and visions should consider Deut 13 and the death penalties imposed upon those who were not true Prophets. In the Hebrew system, their King had to first be announced by the Prophet. False prophecy was simply another mechanism which could be used to usurp legitimate authority in the Hebrew nation, so it was dealt with severely, by the death penalty for anybody who breached its veracity.
Today, we don;t need dreams or visions to have something in which we may reliably place our faith. We have the Lord Savior, Christ Jesus and His Word which has been provided in Scripture.
You and me both. I am not going to argue with those who drag up anything they can to denounce my Bible. I believe what it says, and that is all there is too it. NOBODY walking on this earth will change that opinion. End of conversation regarding it! :-)
Extrabiblical books might be historical and enjoyable reading, but as Scripture, I still have my hands full relying on the standards canon, fully inbreathing His Word and growing in its doctrines as they relate between one another.
From there, I have a sure ground by which to discern other writings. I also know there are plenty of writings, which are not so veritable and easily clutter one’s thinking, distracting away from remaining in fellowship by thinking through faith in Christ in all things.
I will get back to you later when I am home from work and can get out my sources.
Ahm mormonism
The champagne of religions...
the founder had his own bar...
Stromg drinks...champagne included...
So much booze was flowing he bathed in it...
The founder had a ready stable of young girls...
And an angry wife who objected to him having sex with his mistresses in her house...
But it’s such a pure innocent religion...
This is dangerous water to tread, because the Word of God is our one veritable source to grow soundly through by faith in Christ in all things, bodily, soulishly, and spiritually.
There are many spiritual things which aren't understood by the unbeliever, because he doesn't have a regenerated human spirit. There are spiritual things which some are exposed to, which through faith in Christ we are able to perform good works, but also may require Christian maturity in how to behave, decide, think, act, and perform, or remain obedient to proper authority.
In the case of Jesus Christ's Revelation to Paul, we are provided enormous insights to powers, principalities, authorities, and their actions within His framework. These aren't merely figurative expressions for our mental imagery, but provide meat for us to consider through faith in Him, placing us in fellowship where God the Holy Spirit may further grow our soul and spirit per His Plan.
One fabulous significant feature of Scripture is that it is used by Him to grow us. There are many aspects of our thinking which have been scarred by our past worldly and fleshly experience, which we only happen to get corrected when we inbreath His Word by Bible Study and recognize things written which we previously did not know.
Frequently, the literal approach provides volumes of changes to our understanding, becasue it allows us to veritably understand things about which we previously had formed fallacious conceptions.
Reread Romans or Hebrews, with close emphasis on the explicit meaning of each phrase, paying attention to the literal meaning of the prepositions used within. We frequently glance over them, reading our general feeling into Scripture, instead of breathing it in, so He performs the changes in us. Faith is all from Him, His work upon us, while we remain in fellowship with Him.
Check out Hebrews 1:1
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OK
Where is it ???
Oh never mind...
I’ll post it myself...
I love the Bible
Thank me...
;)
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hebrews 1:1
yes He did...
That would be the Old Testament prophets...
Jesus referred to them several times in His teachings...
But potp had said...
“I believe God speaks to me every day in many different ways.”
So why would he need a prophet ???
There is no need for a prophet nowadays...
Not for the last 2,000 years...
Jesus sent us the Holy Ghost...
Who would refer to a mere man when God Himself will talk to us anytime and all the time ???
Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Jhn 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Jhn 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Jhn 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Jhn 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Jhn 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.
Jhn 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. John 16:7-15
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:16
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hebrews 1:1
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BTW notice that the qualifying factor is “in time past”
If the Second Coming and coming face to face with the Lord were identical, there would have been no need to use different language and grammar in different contexts for the same event.
There are semantic similarities, but IMHO, it is better to discern explicitly the context of each phrase and what might be knowable and not knowable to us about each.
This isn't to debate or criticize your position, rather I note there may be some valuable doctrine available by studying each literally in its appropriate context.
And then there is Hebrews 1:2...
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; Hebrews 1:2
God doesnt use “prophets” any more..
He spoke by His Son...
That is Jesus ...
And Jesus sent the Holy Ghost...
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. John 16:13
No need for a “prophet”
Neither the false prophet Mohammad nor the false prophet Joseph Smith was or is needed...
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