The Messianic Jew & Charismatic Dispensationalism

The Messianic Literary Corner ^ | 11/30/2008 | Marshall Beeber

[mbeeber]

	The Messianic Jew & Charismatic Dispensationalism by Marshall Beeber In the nineteenth century a theological revolution called "Dispensationalism" rightly outlined the "Biblical Historical Perspective", thereby giving mankind a clearer picture of how God has provided and continues to provide salvation to man throughout history.  By acknowledgement of this perspective, an accord between Hebrew Old Covenant and New Covenant prophecy was forged, sweeping away many of the contradictions that divided Christian and Orthodox Jewish prophetic viewpoints.  Dispensationalists became God's instrument of change in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries,  leading the way in promoting the support of the establishment of the state of Israel and bringing to light the prophetic signposts for the "End of this Age". But when Dispensationalists took a theological stand against the excesses they found in contemporary "Charismatic" Christianity, they "Quenched the Holy Spirit" by denying the validity of most Charismatic Christian spiritual experiences.  The result of this schism today is an eschatology shared by both Fundamentalist and Charismatic Protestant Denominations, but a sharp disagreement on the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Dispensationalists claim they are protecting the kingdom of God from spiritual frauds and false theologies, while the Charismatics believe they have tapped into the "true baptism" of spiritual experience.  Both sides have valid arguments as well as excesses.  The Dispensationalists often times exude an overly dry manner in their presentation of scripture and worship, while the Charismatics often exude a "heart first" approach, which lends themselves susceptible to erroneous doctrine presented in an exuberant fashion. Today most Messianic Jewish fellowships and congregations are disciples of one of the two movements mentioned.  As prophetic events move us closer to Messiah Yeshua's (Christ Jesus) return, believers are reminded of the Hebrew prophet Joel's promise of "prophecy, dreams and visions" among the elect of Israel before the great and terrible "Day of the Lord".1  Dispensationalists believe these occurrences were only present in the times immediately following the "Day of Pentecost" and will be present during the times just preceding "Judgment Day", where Charismatics believe these expressions of the Spirit were present from the Day of Pentecost continuously to the present day.2 Nevertheless, as the great "Day of Judgment" approaches, both Fundamentalist and Charismatic Christians should have more to agree upon than disagree.  When Dispensationalists accept they are living in the days just preceding the "Second Coming of Christ", they must also accept the very teachings they originally postulated. So as the "Day of the Lord" draws near, even Dispensationalists must accept those movements of the Spirit prophesied by Joel and recited by Peter on the Day of Pentecost. I believe Messianic Jews (Hebrew Christians) and Gentile Christians from Fundamentalist, Charismatic and Reformed backgrounds will soon come to an understanding that events much greater than themselves will soon shape their understanding of the Lord's will in regards to commonly held beliefs and attitudes.  We will all witness the same wonderful signs, tribulations and persecutions, whereby our love for the Lord Yeshua and one another will be tried and refined.  It is then that Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ will finally be united in purpose and strength as we all await the "Coming of the Lord". 1. Joel 2:28-29 2. Acts 2:16-18 (Additional studies and commentaries are requested. Feel free to email MLC your materials for posting)

[mbeeber]

(a correction of my previous posting)

Hello Onedoug,

Your question was: “Why is a so-called messianic jew not a christian? Or, if supposedly (s)he is christian, how can (s)he claim to be a Jew?”

“Messiah” is the English term that comes from “Moshiach”. It is a Hebrew word meaning “the anointed one.” There were a number of moshiach’s in Jewish history, including King David and Judas Maccabeus. All were “types” of the ultimate “Moshiach”, Yeshua or Jesus of Nazareth, who shed His blood as a offering for the sins of all mankind, and will one day site upon the “Throne of David” in Jerusalem as King of all the earth.

To avoid any semantics, Messiah means Christ. A Messianic Jew is a Christian Jew. Paul, Peter and myriads of Jews believing in the diety and Messiah-ship of Jesus are Messianic Jews. They are also Christian Jews. As a gentile in Christ, you are a Messianic Gentile. As far as election, we are all one in Christ.

There are some Messianic Jews that may take issue with my statment “A Messianic Jew is a Christian Jew”. They are being factous and are not speaking from a Christ centered perspective, but rather a foolishly contrived pseudo Messianic perspective.

Feel free to refer to me as a Messianic Jew, Hebrew Christian or Jewish Christian. All that matters is that Jesus knows who I am and I know that He knows. I hope that answer lays to rest your question.

There are those that question why a believer in Jesus with Jewish ancestry should still be considered a Jew. Should one’s Jewishness be denied if one believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah? Why so? If Jesus is not the Messiah, King of Israel, than I am an apostate and you Christians are deluded fools. If Jesus is the Messiah, then my Jewishness should be proclaimed. Did not Paul state that he was a Jew. He did not do so from false pride, but simply stated a fact.

In Christ,

Marshall

[Lee N. Field]

A better answer than some I’ve seen.

[onedoug]

Hi Marshall (my middlename btw)

I'm a Noachide, so you might see my take that The One God revealed Himself to the Hebrews at Sinai.

I see Jesus legacy as having opened the scientific revolution of the Renaissance, and without which the United States could not have been founded.

On the other hand, I suspect Jesus the Jew would have been appalled to see what Paul and the Gospel writers had turned him into.

I think Jews becoming Christian is fine so long as when they choose Christianity they leave Judaism to Jews. Conversely a Christian who became a Jew, yet still called himself a Christian would be disingenuous at best, and likely could be considered deeply sinful.

I just don’t understand how one can be one thing yet insist on being called what that thing clearly is not. It strikes me as somewhat infantile that one cannot stand with one’s convictions, and rather attempt to have it both ways. That seems like moral relativism to me.

”If I knew God I’d be Him.” Though I think singleness of purpose overall is an attribute of which He’d approve.

God’s grace to You and Yours.

[topcat54]

[mbeeber]

Onedoug,

Your statement; “I think Jews becoming Christian is fine so long as when they choose Christianity they leave Judaism to Jews”. indicates your lack of understanding of the roots of Christianity.

Those Jews in Messiah are called to freedom and are not bound to Torah. Yet, Messianic Jews are free to observe Jewish holidays and festivals. We have our own “Messianic Distinctive”.

The Messiah does not desire that Jewish believers be stripped of their Jewish identity.

In fact, when Messiah Yeshus (Jesus) returns to reign in Jerusalem, all the nations of the earth will be commanded to celebrate Succoth (The Feast of Tabernacles). See the passage below.

Zechariah 14:16-19 (New International Version)

16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain. 18

I cited this passage to give you a better understanding of the things to come. Much of the form of Christianity in the Church Age will pass away. I do not believe that the Law will be re-instituted, but rather a world free in G-d’s grace will exist. It is then that both Israel and the nations will reach the perfection that G-d has intended.

Zechariah 2:10 “Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,” declares the LORD. “Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you.

[Lee N. Field]

unless you are a gentile turned messianic Jew.

Would he then have a claim on the land "from the river to the sea". And still eligible to get raptured out in the nick of tribulation? Best 'o both worlds.

Ohh, this gets so complicated.

[Not just another dumb blonde]

“Christian is a gentile term, to be used only when speaking of gentiles, unless you are a gentile turned messianic Jew.”

The disciples were Jewish and they were followers of Christ (which is what a christian is). Christ started the christian faith. Did that make Him any less of a Jew? Then again, maybe I’m missing your point.

[Lee N. Field]

This is documented in Armageddon Now by Dwight Wilson.

Available here.

[topcat54]

Then again, maybe I’m missing your point.

It had to do with members of this forum and the larger MJ community who believe the term "Christian" is only appropriate for gentiles.

[topcat54]

Ohh, this gets so complicated.

I wanna know when they hold the bris.

[mbeeber]

Matthew 24:29-31 emphasizes a gathering of the elect, of both Old and New Covenant saints rising from their graves, and New Covenant saints (Christians) faithfully awaiting the return of the Lord. This passage indicates the Rapture will take place during tribulation, following the shaking of heavenly powers and sign of Son of Man in heaven.

Matthew 24:29-31, KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Paul’s stated in 2 Thes. 2:3-4 that the second coming of the Messiah will not occur until a falling away occurs first, followed by the coming of the son of perdition (anti-christ), and then the defiling of the Temple of God in Jerusalem. This passage contradicts the Pre-Tribulational doctrinal viewpoint.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-9

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Read a complete study on the Rapture at http://www.messianic-literary.com/rapture.htm

[topcat54]

Matthew 24:29-31 emphasizes a gathering of the elect, of both Old and New Covenant saints rising from their graves, and New Covenant saints (Christians) faithfully awaiting the return of the Lord. This passage indicates the Rapture will take place during tribulation, following the shaking of heavenly powers and sign of Son of Man in heaven.

Actually, there is nothing specific in that passage about saints rising from the grave or the so-called rapture. That is an inference based on a faulty interpretation of the text.

And while the passage is about the "great tribulation", it's clear from the context that the event was a 1st century occurrence. Some folks get tripped up on the language of the sun being darkened, etc, but a careful examination of the Old Testament prophets will reveal identical or similar language used to describe the temporal judgment against nations.

1 The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw. ... 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. (Isaiah 13)

Jesus' disciples, those Jews of that day quite familiar with the language of the prophets, understood the words of Jesus and did indeed flee from Jerusalem when they saw the approaching Roman armies. They saw the "abomination of desolation" and "fled to the mountains".

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. (Matt. 24)

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, (Luke 21)

Same event, similar language, different audience. In this case, it describes the temporal judgment that was about to fall upon ancient Israel, "this generation", in the transition from old covenant to new.

36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation . 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' " (Matt. 23)

[P-Marlowe]

Wasn’t it Chuck Smith that predicted Jesus would return in 1988?

And according to guys like you, he was only off by 1918 years. Didn't you and Gary Demar predict that Jesus came back in 70 AD?

Perhaps that is the best we can do with preterism.

[topcat54]

Perhaps that is the best we can do with preterism.

If you were a newbie I would take the time to explain the difference, but you have been around long enough to know the drill so I will not bore you.

[mbeeber]

Yes, I do remember your response from my posting a few weeks ago. It looks like a “cut and paste” from your prior anti-Millenial doctrinal defense.

[P-Marlowe]

If you were a newbie I would take the time to explain the difference...

I suppose someone could argue that Jesus came back in 1988 in the same manner he came back in 70 AD. But then that would be disingenuous.

The fact of the matter is that nobody will have to wonder when Jesus returned when he returns. EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM!

That didn't happen in 70 AD and it didn't happen in 1988.

[mbeeber]

Good night brethren. Many happy dreams!

[topcat54]

That didn't happen in 70 AD and it didn't happen in 1988.

Since I'm a nice guy I will take a brief moment to mention that neither I nor any of my friends take the events of AD70 as the Second Coming. I have never said anything to the contrary. Of course you knew that so I should not have to repeat myself.

Chuck Smith, on the other hand, did believe the actual Second Coming was to occur in 1988. Perhaps you did too. Many dispies did.

We now return to our regular programming.

[topcat54]

Yes, I do remember your response from my posting a few weeks ago. It looks like a “cut and paste” from your prior anti-Millenial doctrinal defense.

Actually, I do not recall this coming up in our discussions, but I'm flattered that you would remember. And, no, it was not a cut & paste although the theme has come up before.

In any event I don't recall any response on your part.

How does Isaiah 13 relate to Matthew 24, or doesn't it?

How is it that the Jewish Christians of Jesus' day understood the Olivet Discourse as referring to the events of AD70 and fled the city while so many modern Jews and gentiles see fit to invent a future abomination of desolation, rebuilt a future temple, reconstitute a future priesthood, resurrect a future Roman empire, etc? What do you know that they didn't know?

[xzins]

Not so....many of you (most?) take it as the “coming in the clouds.”