Posted on 10/05/2008 10:33:44 AM PDT by narses
I also have a complaint -- not with the Catechism produced by the Third Council of Baltimore per se, but with some editions which have been published.
In particular, the Baltimore Catechism No. 2 currently published by Tan Books contains a serious heresy.
Question 30. Are the three Divine Persons really distinct from one another?
The three Divine Persons are really distinct from one another.
The Tan BC#2 has a footnote to this question which defines the word "distinct" as meaning "separate."
This is a very grave heresy. The Three Persons of the Trinity are distinct; but They are not separate.
The Athanasian Creed: And this is the Catholic faith: that we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the Persons nor separating the substance. For the Person of the Father is distinct, distinct the Person of the Son, and distinct the Person of the Holy Spirit....
Council of Toledo (675): Therefore we say that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, each one distinctly; yet there are not three gods, but one God. Theirs is one, undivided and equal deity.... Hence we confess and believe that each Person distinctly is fully God, and the three Persons together are one God. Theirs is one, undivided and equal Godhead.... For we distinguish the Persons, but do not divide the Godhead. Hence, we recognize the Trinity in the distinction of Persons and we profess the unity on account of the nature or substance. Thus, the three are one as a nature, not as person. Nevertheless these three Persons are not to be considered separable since, according to our beliefs, none of them ever existed or acted before another, after another, without another. For they are inseparable both in what they are and in what they do.... For this reason we profess and believe that this Trinity is not separable but is distinct.... Therefore, neither do we confuse these three Persons whose nature is one and inseparable, nor do we preach that they are in any way separable....
I was just going to post those links. LOL!
Well that is insightful. I always thought we were too nuanced.
Mary deserves prayer, but not worship, but they're the same, but they aren't...
I'd much prefer to be dense. I'd get attacked a lot less.
How can most Christians support a doctrine, which only Catholic Church tradition says you have to believe to be saved, justify all the souls lost to Islam because of that doctrine?We (Christians) support so many doctrines that seperate us from the Islamic hordes. Monogamy. The Divinity of Christ Jesus. And so much more. The Trinity is one issue out of many. That Islam is (at best) heretical is a reality. What would you have us do, proclaim Mohamat (PBUH) as a Prophet and Allah (the Moon God/Goddess) as the Divinity? Sorry, no sale!
Further, see the last question. Do you truly believe you can understand God?
God is infinitely simple. He can only appear to the finite mind as infinitely complex. ~ Doctor Angelicus
This is an open thread. All are welcome. And loved.
I think that is a translation issue. The Persons are seperate, the Godhead is not.
Speaking of Islamic Hordes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QcpdUtxNQ
How about Obama openly campaigning for his communist cousin Odinga who signed a pact with Muslims to enact Sharia Law if elected and started riots when he lost. Obama campaigned for an openly Anti-American candidate in a foreign country in 2006.
Assume the Trinity is correct. Why can't people be saved if they are mistaken and believe it is false? God can't save people, despite their ignorance? If the Trinity is correct, why would God save people (Noah, Elijah, Moses, etc.) who did not understand his Trinitarian nature?
The Jews that knew Christ accepted Him because they knew He was the Messiah. The Jews after the doctrine of the trinity don't because they know he isn't God the way the trinity describes Him.
Current Jews. What of them? They deny Christ is God, AND they deny Christ is the Messiah.
If the doctrine is from man, God can show them mercy. If the doctrine is from Him, He cannot.
You propose to limit God and His mercy? Bold, my friend.
What do you think of Christ's command to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? We should baptize in the name of God, plus some other things that aren't God?
If it is Truth, absolutely. You are ignoring the power of the Evil One to corrupt God's Truth, and the free agency of the human soul. God is not a tyrant.
No. It's a matter of technical vocabulary in Scholastic Philosophy and Theology -- whether in Latin, Greek or English.
Two things are distinct if A is not B.
Two things are separate if A can exist independently of B.
The Three Persons of the Holy Trinity are distinct. They are not separate.
The Tan Baltimore Catechism No. 2 teaches heresy.
God would save them the same way He saves you and I whether we or they do or do not understand His Trinitarian nature. The only thing we need to be saved is to repent and believe in our heart that we are sinners and Jesus died for those sins and agree to make Him our Lord.
The Jews that knew Christ accepted Him because they knew He was the Messiah. The Jews after the doctrine of the trinity don't because they know he isn't God the way the trinity describes Him.
Current Jews. What of them? They deny Christ is God, AND they deny Christ is the Messiah.
As I stated before. The Jews before the doctrine of the trinity had no problem accepting Jesus because they believed He was the Messiah, the Christ, the anointed one of God. Not God. When the Church made Jesus God, He could no longer be the Messiah under their belief system.
If the doctrine is from man, God can show them mercy. If the doctrine is from Him, He cannot.
You propose to limit God and His mercy? Bold, my friend.
I do not propose to limit God. I should not have used the word mercy in my statements. God does not show mercy like we do in our courts because of the bleeding heart liberal politicians and judges. In God's court things are black and white. There is no gray. There are no attorneys blaming someone else for their clients misgivings. There is only one crime, sin. You are either a sinner or you are not.
Only One so far is sinless. All the rest are guilty. The only mercy God has shown is to allow that one sinless Man's punishment and death to be the payment for all of us who are guilty if we repent in our heart and ask.
What do you think of Christ's command to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? We should baptize in the name of God, plus some other things that aren't God?
I have no problem taking orders from Him. He said it, I have no reason to do it any other way. It is not for me to decide if they are God or not. It has no bearing on the out come. The individual will be baptized.
If it is Truth, absolutely. You are ignoring the power of the Evil One to corrupt God's Truth, and the free agency of the human soul. God is not a tyrant.
I have not ignored the power of Satan to do anything. I am stating God sees the future, He does not have to wait like us to see the results. He would know the results instantly. All the war, killing, raping and torture just to mention some of the horrors Islam has committed over the years plus us defending against them.
Would your God make such a doctrine knowing the repercussions? I don't think mine would.
You say: “The Tan Baltimore Catechism No. 2 teaches heresy.”
They say:
Nihil Obstat granted by Arthur Scanlan, S.T.D., Censor Librorum and Imprimatur by Francis Spellan, D.D., Archbishop.
Q.E.D.+
“Can God see the future?”
What religion do you believe in? One where God is not omnipresent?
Catholics are not to blame for Islam.
A child raping illiterate scumbag who loved blood more than life is to blame for Islam.
Since Islam has absolutely nothing to do with g-ds love, but everything to with Satan; g-d does not control the day to day workings of Satan.
Allah is a pimp and Mohamed is his whore.
They -- and the authors, editors and publishers -- did not notice the error taught in that footnote. But it is, in fact, a serious point in Catholic theology.
Tan is also responsible, in their reprinting the heresy and selling the books.
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