[guitarplayer1953]

It has been brought up that praying to Mary and or the Saints is biblical. Here is an artical answering that question.

[ConservativeMind]

There's nothing in Scripture that remotely suggests the dead can talk on behalf of us in any form.

[wendy1946]

Jesus said to pray to God; works for me.....

[Quix]

INDEED:

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25).

With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son?

Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

. . . AHHHHHHH . . . what need?

The political power-mongering "need" on the part of the bureaucratic magicsterical to demote The Son; The Spirit . . . in behalf of exalting the earth-mother/Mary Caricature/Goddess/Queen of Heaven blasphemous image/construct/fantasy.

The Mary Caricature . . . about which and over which the magicsterical has full control--can be manipulated to any ends imaginable for purely political, bureaucratic, power-mongering, financial . . . whatever "needs."

Besides, it seductively fills that foundational human "need" to be "in charge of . . . " "in !!!!CONTROL!!!! of"

each individual's own RELIGIOSITY--DESTINY--SALVATION. !!!!CONTROL!!!! All the 2 year old mommy manipulators LOVE IT.

Coo just right; wail just right; look goo-goo eyes just right; adore just right; snuggle just right; . . . and the cookie's yours! From THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN, no less. [Barf.]

Clever idea.

. . . from the pit.

[GOP Poet]

bookmark

[Soliton]

Before Rome was Christian it was common to pray to lessor gods to intercede with greater gods.

Roman Catholics simply replaced Venus with St. Valentine.

[Mad Dawg]

It's not significantly more or less biblical than hauling oneself to the New Green Mountain Baptist Church of a Sunday, firing up the Wurlitzer and making the rafters shake IMHO.

No offense, but the "artical" is hard to take seriously.

It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them.

Why "saints or Mary"? Mary is a saint. And what source does the author have for saying what our "official position" is? I personally have no problem saying that I pray to saints and angels as well as to God. They're all personal beings, and prayer is a form of request.

Heck, I pray to my cat, Clint Junior Lightning, who is probably more in the demon category, as in, "Would you puhLEEZE remove your claws from my toe! It's three in the morning!"

Catholics view Mary and saints as "intercessors" before God.

Catholics view all Christians as intercessors before God.

They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly.

Source? "Official" source? That is practically a cartoonish or nursery school depiction of what I think, so imprecise as to be virtually useless for any serious discussion. It is taking one inadequate metaphor, often used for those not theologically inclined, and blowing it up into an argument.

Ah, the old I Tim 2:5 argument. I haven't seen that in, wow, it must be minutes, maybe even hours! How time flies!

In the normal or garden variety use of the word intercessor or mediator, anyone who asks something on someone else's behalf. In the normal use of words, therefore if Paul, also in the Timothy correspondence, directs us to make supplications, prayers, intercessions (koff koff), and thanksgivings for all men shall we conclude that Paul is contradicting himself? Or shall we rather look into one theme of Paul's discourse, that of being members of Christ and "in" Christ, and wonder if the head of a body normally acts alone, or if in an integrated person the body does what the head directs?

However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching.

It would have been more fruitful and less controversial to stay here. Yes, the thoughts and practices of some Catholics are superstitious and erroneous.

Oh no -- not the "need" argument! Clearly the work of the Son and the intercession of the 2nd and 3rd persons of the Trinity is all we "need". So why does Paul tell us to make supplications and the rest? Maybe it's not about "need"? Maybe it's about being members of the one intercessor -- and acting like it? Something in that neighborhood? Is your side opposed to the asking for prayers threads which appear on FR? I mean what is the "need"?

Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim.

Let us indeed. Actually this Catholic would claim that praying to the saints, among whom he considers the Mother of God to be preeminent though not different in kind, is not importantly different from asking someone on earth to pray for us. The Bible does not say 2+2=4, but we are allowed to use our heads.

The omniscient argument! I greet it affectionately as I would an old and disreputable, but still endearing, neighborhood drunk!

Look: Even in his evidently rapidly advancing dotage, Ahnold the Gubernator is stronger than I, and richer than I. By the reasoning presented here, I am saying he possesses all strength and all wealth. If we say the saints in heaven have something more than we, how does it follow that they have it all?

As to the wizened and bewhiskered necromancy argument, we Catholics think something happened on Easter Weekend approximately 1970 years, give or take, ago. And what the witch of Endor did with Samuel is as different from what we do with saints is as different as rape is from wooing.

There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone.

So there is no Biblical basis for the threads on Free Republic which ask Freepers to pray for someone? Paul is wrong to ask for the prayers of the Ephesians? This is an example of what I mean by saying it's hard to take this seriously. The point under contention is whether there is some basis or "need" for asking the saints in heaven for their prayers, isn't it? Why not stick to that point? Instead in the peroration this "artical" says there's no basis or need to ask for anyone's prayers, which is plainly contradicted by Paul's own words.

As for "Biblical", we find in the Bible promises that God makes to His Church. For us, that's enough. I try, I do not always succeed, not to pick and choose which of God's promises I will stake my life and thought on.

The article blends erroneous practices with "official" teaching, which it declares but does not support with citations. It confuses MORE power with ALL power. It is ludicrously imprecise, saying here there is no Biblical basis to ask ANYONE for prayers and giving there the very citation of Paul's asking for prayers. It takes analogies and images as theological arguments. It confuses the necromantic compelling of shades with prayerful petition of those who live to God. In general it sends out a sledge hammer to do a scalpel's job. There is a significant difference in our thought. This article fails to present it, IMHO.

[Atticus]

There is one type of post on Freerepublic I find it hard to ignore and that is a Prayer Request (and, especially, an Urgent Prayer Request). If we can freely ask for the prayers of our fellow mortals, why can we not ask them of the saints?

[navygal]

We have a direct line to God, we should pray directly to him only. How can Mary and the other saints pray for us when they are asleep in Christ?

[papertyger]

It has been brought up that praying to Mary and or the Saints is biblical.

Neither is relying on a book to establish Christian faith and practice, but Catholic critics never seem interested in that fact.

[ZULU]

That’s it - keep it up. Protestants and Catholics fighting. The Muslim Moon God worshippers LOVE it.

[BudgieRamone]

I think that biblical justification for asking the intercession of Mary comes from the wedding at Canna. The servants told Mary they were out of wine and Mary went to Jesus and told him. Christ then performed a miracle (water to wine) after Mary told the servants to “do whatever he tells you” If Christ listened to his earthly mother and honored her request (as the law—Honor you father and your mother) doesn’t it stand to reason that Christ would still revere her and would want us to do the same?

Reverence is different from praying to or worshipping.

Also on the matter of praying for the intercession of saints
I can only offer anecdotal evidence on my part about the intercession of saints—yes I pray to Jesus often but sometimes when there is a special need I ask for the intercession of a saint. Often times it is none other than Saint Anthony—patron of lost items but I have been known to ask St. Joseph’s intercession (fathers and heads of household, Job seekers and workers) When a particular prayer is answered favorably—or not I thank the Lord first then the particular saint who I believe assisted me in my petition.
All I know is that more often than not this seems to work
My sister explained that the situation is something like this: Saints died in the grace of God and are assumed to be in heaven—that is they are sons of the Father and Christ’s brothers/sisters through baptism If they are Christ’s brothers and sisters would he not want us to know his family ? as he hopes that we will someday join in heavenly communion with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all the choirs of angels and others who died in a state of grace and are now with him in heaven?
JM2B, take it for what it is worth..:)

[roamer_1]

Nope. Dirtnap. Sound of the trumpet... too bad...

[Salvation]

I think you meant “article.”

Intercession is Biblical.

Who was the first person who asked Jesus to do something extraordinary?

Hint: Wedding of Cana

She told those around her: “Do whatever He tells you.”

Mary was the first intercessor; she interceded for bride and groom who were out of wine.

BTW, those are the last words of Mary in the Bible. So we should also listen.

“Do whatever he tells you.” She points away from herself directly to her Son, Jesus Christ, true man and true God.

[Salvation]

The Early Church Fathers on Intercession of the Saints - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

[Salvation]

Scriptural Basis

---

III. Specific Instructions to Mediate and Examples of Subordinate Mediation

New Testament

Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.

Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.

Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.

Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus' passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.

Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.

John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.

Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.

2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other's prayers.

2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.

2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ's mediation.

Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another's burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.

Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.

Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?

Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians' earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.

Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.

Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.

Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn't Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.

1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.

1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says "pray constantly." If Jesus' role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?

1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.

2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ's mediation because Christ desires this.

2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.

1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.

2 Tim. 1:3 – Paul says “I remember you constantly in my prayers.”

Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon's intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.

Heb. 1:14 – the author writes, “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?”

Hebrews 13:18-19 - the author strongly urges the Hebrews to pray for the elders so that they act desirably in all things.

James 5:14-15- James says the prayer of the priests over the sick man will save the sick man and forgive his sins. This is a powerful example of men forgiving sins and bringing a person to salvation with the sacrament of the sick.

James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.

James 5:17-18 - James refers to God's response to Elijah's fervent prayer for no rain. He is teaching us about the effectiveness of our earthly mediation.

1 John 5:14-15 - John is confident that God will grant us anything we ask of God according to His will.

1 John 5:16-17 - our prayers for others even calls God to give life to them and keep them from sinning. Our God is a personal and living God who responds to our prayers.

3 John 2 - John prays for Gaius' health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.

Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

Old Testament

Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham's intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.

Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.

Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God's response to Moses' saintly intercession.

1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn't continue to intercede for the people of Israel.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.

2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God's holy habitation in heaven and were answered.

Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.

Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.

Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.

Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.

Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.

Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.

Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah's lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.

Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people's ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.

Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.

Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.

Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.

Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.

Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.

2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.

Scriptural Basis

---

III. Specific Instructions to Mediate and Examples of Subordinate Mediation

New Testament

Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.

Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.

Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.

Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus' passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.

Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.

John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.

Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.

2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other's prayers.

2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.

2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ's mediation.

Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another's burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.

Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.

Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?

Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians' earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.

Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.

Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.

Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn't Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.

1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.

1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says "pray constantly." If Jesus' role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?

1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.

2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ's mediation because Christ desires this.

2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.

1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.

2 Tim. 1:3 – Paul says “I remember you constantly in my prayers.”

Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon's intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.

Heb. 1:14 – the author writes, “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?”

Hebrews 13:18-19 - the author strongly urges the Hebrews to pray for the elders so that they act desirably in all things.

James 5:14-15- James says the prayer of the priests over the sick man will save the sick man and forgive his sins. This is a powerful example of men forgiving sins and bringing a person to salvation with the sacrament of the sick.

James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.

James 5:17-18 - James refers to God's response to Elijah's fervent prayer for no rain. He is teaching us about the effectiveness of our earthly mediation.

1 John 5:14-15 - John is confident that God will grant us anything we ask of God according to His will.

1 John 5:16-17 - our prayers for others even calls God to give life to them and keep them from sinning. Our God is a personal and living God who responds to our prayers.

3 John 2 - John prays for Gaius' health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.

Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

Old Testament

Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham's intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.

Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.

Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God's response to Moses' saintly intercession.

1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn't continue to intercede for the people of Israel.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.

2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God's holy habitation in heaven and were answered.

Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.

Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.

Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.

Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.

Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.

Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.

Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah's lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.

Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people's ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.

Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.

Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.

Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.

Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.

Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.

2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.

[narses]

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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

[Larry Lucido]

I don’t know whether or not saints in Heaven can intercede for me (or hear my request). I know that my buddy can hear me and can say a prayer for me, so I ask him. And just once - he hears me and gets it the first time, and I trust he does it. And I make sure to pray for him to.

If Mary can hear requests to “pray for us sinners,” she is getting billions of such requests a day, making for a somewhat long “to do” list. So my question is, how much more praying can she do that she is not doing already?

[NYer]

It has been brought up that praying to Mary and or the Saints is biblical.

As MadDawg noted, the reference to 1 Tim. 2:5 is immediately trotted out. What about 1 Tim 2:1-2? Before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why? The answer is found in 1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

Furthermore, Paul reminds us in Heb. 12:1 about the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) - that we are surrounded by a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation. Recall too that in Matt. 5:44-45, Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.

As for Mary, in Luke 1:28, the angel Gabriel venerates Mary by declaring to her "Hail, full of grace." The heavenly angel honors the human Mary, for her perfection of grace exceeds that of the angels.

You all claim to embrace the Bible as the Holy Word of God. Then follow it!

“Behold, from henceforth All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed”
Luke 1:48

Blessed Mother

At the very least, pay her the homage she is due for without Mary, there would not have been a Savior.

[Lilllabettt]

My Lord is the lord of the living, not the dead.

Mary and all Christians who sleep in Christ are not dead. They look it to human eyes, but they are not. Jesus has saved them, and they are living, right now.

I can ask any living Christian to pray for me, whether he is alive in earth or in Heaven.

I worked in a building with a computer sever which could handle thousands of requests each second. That's a machine.

A human being is made in the image of God. How many requests can a human being, perfected, untethered from our sinful world, and basking in the presence of God, handle each second?

[MayflowerMadam]

“1 Timothy 2:5 declares, ‘For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.’”

Exactly. It can’t be any clearer than that. That rules out priests as well.