Posted on 09/07/2008 12:21:07 AM PDT by guitarplayer1953
Is prayer to saints / Mary Biblical?"
The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any Biblical basis.
The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholic pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "...approach the throne of grace with confidence..."
1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God's throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
“Who cares what Protestants believe? If they do not want a relationship with the Elect, that’s their call.”
Hey, why are you dragging the Mormons into this?
C'mon, it's more than that and you guys know it...You guys don't just ask your Saints and Mary to pray for you...You pray to these Saints...You ask these Saints and Mary to answer your prayers...You ask Mary to give you mercy and grace...You ask your Saints to protect you while driving your car, or find your car keys...
You pray to these Saints and ask them to give you everything from no cavities in your teeth to making sure you put on a matching pair of shoes each morning...
This has been well documented and posted on FR countless times...
You bow down to and call a human sinner 'Holy Father'...What exactly do you mean when you say that???
In John 17:22-26, it is revealed that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ prayed to the Father that glory which the Father had given to the Son, had been given to those who believe in Him, so that we as believers in Him are one, just as the Son and Father are one.
This touches upon the doctrine of the indwelling of Jesus Christ in every believer during the Church Age.
In Col 1:25-29, Paul reflects he is made a minister to fulfill the word of God, even the mystery not previously shown in any of the Old Testament, regarding the indwelling of Christ in us, which is the hope in reference to glory (as in the Shekinah glory in the OT).
Each of us, through faith in Christ, are members of that royal family, with more power available to us than any other time in human history. It doesn’t come through faith in Mary, that she might approach the Son, rather it comes through faith in Christ, thereby affording a direct line of communication to God the Father, which is intercessed by the Son and spoken by the Holy Spirit in unfathomable moanings.
The legitimate authority we are to respect is that of the Son and the Father while walking with Him, giving control of ourselves via God the Holy Spirit.
All things may be possible, but not profitable in our actions through faith in Him. Placing another intermediary between ourselves and Christ is not fulfilling His intent, but does run risk of encouraging some to misdirect their faith in another person prior to Christ, thereby removing he believer out of fellowship with God.
You wrote:
“There’s nothing in Scripture that remotely suggests the dead can talk on behalf of us in any form.”
Really?
Revelation 5:8
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Revelation 8:3
Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Revelation 8:4
And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand.
Revelation 20:4
[ The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years ] And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Seems to me that the saints pray in heaven constantly (as we saints on earth are supposed to) and will reign with Christ. What do you think they’re praying about all that time? If they reign with Christ and will judge with Him, then they must know about us and what we’re doing.
Um, I thought they were asking for prayer from saints (their fellow mortal believers.)
I think you meant “article.”
Intercession is Biblical.
Who was the first person who asked Jesus to do something extraordinary?
Hint: Wedding of Cana
She told those around her: “Do whatever He tells you.”
Mary was the first intercessor; she interceded for bride and groom who were out of wine.
BTW, those are the last words of Mary in the Bible. So we should also listen.
“Do whatever he tells you.” She points away from herself directly to her Son, Jesus Christ, true man and true God.
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As I’ve noted, Bro,
i no longer have great spiritual concerns about
the attitude of your heart toward God because of Mary.
I’m not even totally sure why. It just seemed at some point, The Lord said you Loved Him above all else and that He’d work out the details concerning you.
That was enough for me.
There are those, however, for whom the INSTITUTIONAL STUFF vis a vis Mary is a very hazardous, even destructive, yellow brick spiritual road.
I suspect that somewhere in your experience, you have even observed such.
BTW. who said RELIGIOUS discussion was ever reasonable!
I don’t mind considering that
“Today you shall be with me in Paradise” meant in every fully conscious sense.
And, there have been plenty of Heavenly visitations, such as Joya has linked to, which clearly indicate that folks are busy about the Master’s business there—worshiping, teaching aborted infants who are growing in the knowledge of The Lord, etc.
None of such visitations I’ve EVER read has included any hint of Mary doing anything else but the standard sorts of things a graduated Christian believers would do. No special office; no special duties; no special honors—certainly no QUEEN OF HEAVENSHIP.
And most certainly not listening to, screening and prioritizing prayers for The Father’s consideration. What blasphemy that would be!
INDEED.
INDEED.
If you say that, I suppose you’re using one of those redacted bibles.
I don’t know whether or not saints in Heaven can intercede for me (or hear my request). I know that my buddy can hear me and can say a prayer for me, so I ask him. And just once - he hears me and gets it the first time, and I trust he does it. And I make sure to pray for him to.
If Mary can hear requests to “pray for us sinners,” she is getting billions of such requests a day, making for a somewhat long “to do” list. So my question is, how much more praying can she do that she is not doing already?
pray for him to = pray for him too
Spelling police, pray for me.
Good point. Certainly most of the data is on your side!
In my case,
I can always claim I had great motherly training in “unreasonable.”
LOL.
But seriously, while the argument has a certain rhetorical force, it's not conclusive. The pagans were wrong, and those they thought were gods weren't. They prayed to a Father god. Shall we stop saying "Our Father?"
And are you saying that prayers for the prayers of St. Anthony should not be done because they are effective somehow? I mean look at what you said. She prayed to Anthony and found the wallet. You say that like it's a bad thing. You're old enough to know exactly what they did in pagan Rome and you don't lose stuff? Now THAT's a miracle!
Why would God allow such deceptions to take place. The number of stories of prayers to St. Anthony is so great that they are a commonplace among devout Catholics. I nearly always pray to Anthony and when I do I nearly always find what I'm looking for right away. Then I thank God for helping me and St. Anthony for the help of his prayers. Then I hit my head for being such a dunce as to lose my wallet or whatever for the 45th time that day. If it weren't for Anthony's intercession I'd probably only be able to drive my car once a week.
As to how much more praying can she do, I really like that question. It reminds me, somehow, of the 'orrible brat child calling last week to ask why Jesus told us to pray that God's will be done. "I mean, it's gonna be done anyway ...."
It seems to me that all Spirit- enabled, -assisted -whatever prayer sooner or later comes down to asking God that His will be done and asking Him to help us mean that. And that comes down to asking God to unite our wills with His. I suspect that somewhere in that process we quit counting our prayers.
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