Pope: Other denominations not true churches

MSNBC ^ | July. 10, 2007

[Between the Lines]

Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.

Benedict approved a document from his old offices at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that restates church teaching on relations with other Christians. It was the second time in a week the pope has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church.

Benedict, who attended Vatican II as a young theologian, has long complained about what he considers the erroneous interpretation of the council by liberals, saying it was not a break from the past but rather a renewal of church tradition.

In the latest document — formulated as five questions and answers — the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II’s ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been “erroneous or ambiguous” and had prompted confusion and doubt.

It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, “Dominus Iesus,” which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation.”

In the new document and an accompanying commentary, which were released as the pope vacations here in Italy’s Dolomite mountains, the Vatican repeated that position.

“Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one church,” the document said. The other communities “cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense” because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ’s original apostles.

[MarkBsnr]

***If Peter was in Jerusalem on Penteost then he wasn’t yet in Rome.***

If you have trouble with your Bible, you might want to use http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible.

Nobody is claiming that Peter was in Rome during Pentecost. However, both Peter and Paul wound up in Rome and both were martyred there. The Jerusalem Church had a significantly different outcome.

[Fichori]

"Without the Church, how are you certain that your relationship is with Christ and not the brightest angel?"

How do you know that you haven't been deceived by what a man has told you?

When this man speaks, how do you know that he does not intend to deceive you?

Can you search his heart?

How can you know that he has not been deceived?

Where does his authority come from?

Where does his wisdom come from?

Where does his knowledge of things above come from?

Who ordained him to be greater than a servant?

[MarkBsnr]

***You get three Christians together and talk about it. ***

Are you saying that three Christians together are proof against the brightest angel?

***Besides if God should find the need for followers he can raise them up out of the ground itself.***

I suggest that God, the Creator, does not find the need for followers. What kind of Christian are you anyway? What kind of understanding of God do you have?

[muawiyah]

Gee whiz, both statements can be backed up totally with Scripture specific to the point.

So, what kind of Christian are you? Read the bible much?

[MarkBsnr]

***How do you know that you haven’t been deceived by what a man has told you?***

The Church of Jesus Christ has taught me.

***When this man speaks, how do you know that he does not intend to deceive you?***

By trusting in the Word of Jesus Christ.

***Can you search his heart?***

The Holy Spirit has commissioned the Church. I trust the Holy Spirit to search the hearts of those who teach.

***How can you know that he has not been deceived?***

The Catechism of the Church is open to all and not open to deception.

***Where does his authority come from?***

Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

***Where does his wisdom come from?***

Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

***Where does his knowledge of things above come from?***

Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

***Who ordained him to be greater than a servant?***

Noone. The Pope is the servant of the servants of Christ.

[MarkBsnr]

***Gee whiz, both statements can be backed up totally with Scripture specific to the point. ***

Prove it.

***So, what kind of Christian are you? Read the bible much?***

Let’s find out.

[Fichori]

***How do you know that you haven’t been deceived by what a man has told you?***

The Church of Jesus Christ has taught me.

A church of men who claim that their church is of Jesus Christ.

***When this man speaks, how do you know that he does not intend to deceive you?***

By trusting in the Word of Jesus Christ.

Did he speak to you in an audible voice?

***Can you search his heart?***

The Holy Spirit has commissioned the Church. I trust the Holy Spirit to search the hearts of those who teach.

Did the Holy Spirit tell you this?

***How can you know that he has not been deceived?***

The Catechism of the Church is open to all and not open to deception.

Catechism written by the same men who say their church in the one and only church.

***Where does his authority come from?***

Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Did Jesus Christ tell you this?

***Where does his wisdom come from?***

Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

You were at a Pentecost?

***Where does his knowledge of things above come from?***

Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

He was at Pentecost also?

***Who ordained him to be greater than a servant?***

Noone. The Pope is the servant of the servants of Christ.

Then why does he sit on a throne holding a scepter and wear a crown on his head and have people kneel before him and kiss his feet?

Will he wash my feet?

[dangus]

>> Needs another try. This time say something. Subject Verb Predicate. You know, the basics. <<

Ironic, isn’t it? You’ve used four periods and couldn’t create one complete sentence. You were just making fun of me. See, the funny thing is that I was only rewriting the final fragment of what had been a complete sentence, the part that I had typed in wrong.

[muawiyah]

Yes, the opportunity for humor was clear. I’ve been breaking in a new low profile Apple keyboard myself. Gad.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“If Peter was in Jerusalem on Penteost then he wasn’t yet in Rome.”

So what?

“The Western Catholic Church has its roots in Rome which was established by one of the apostles.”

There is no such thing as the “Western Catholic Church”. There is only the Catholic Church and it started in Jerusalem. The fact that Peter later moved to Rome is both irrelevant to where it started and irrelevant to where most of its members are as well.

“The Jerusalem church had a different outcome.”

? What? Such as? Different outcome? You mean it fell into several somewhat competing Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions? Yeah, typical.

[MarkBsnr]

***A church of men who claim that their church is of Jesus Christ. ***

We have history and the documentation of the last 2000 years. What claims do you have?

***Did he speak to you in an audible voice? ***

No, I don’t hear the voices. I understand that there is treatment for audio psychosis. Have you availed yourself of it?

***Catechism written by the same men who say their church in the one and only church. ***

I’m sorry to break the news to you that the Church of Christ is the Church of Christ. Commissioned by the Holy Spirit. Who founded your church?

***You were at a Pentecost? ***

I understand there to be only one Pentecost. I was not at it; perhaps you were at some of the ones that you understand there to be. Are you Christian, by the way?

***He was at Pentecost also? ***

The Holy Spirit commissioned the Church at Pentecost. I’m sorry if you don’t have any Scriptural knowledge.

***Then why does he sit on a throne holding a scepter and wear a crown on his head and have people kneel before him and kiss his feet?***

Who? The Pope? He doesn’t wear a crown. Who kisses the Pope’s feet? Are you well?

***Will he wash my feet?***

He is the servant of the servants of God. If you are a servant of God, then he may. If you are a servant of the brightest angel, as you seem to indicate, then he probably will not.

[Fichori]

***A church of men who claim that their church is of Jesus Christ. ***

We have history and the documentation of the last 2000 years. What claims do you have?

It is still only the history and documentation as recorded by those who claim it to be true.

***Did he speak to you in an audible voice? ***

No, I don’t hear the voices. I understand that there is treatment for audio psychosis. Have you availed yourself of it?

Then how do you know he said it?

***Catechism written by the same men who say their church in the one and only church. ***

I’m sorry to break the news to you that the Church of Christ is the Church of Christ. Commissioned by the Holy Spirit. Who founded your church?

It is still Catechism written by men.

***You were at a Pentecost? ***

I understand there to be only one Pentecost. I was not at it; perhaps you were at some of the ones that you understand there to be. Are you Christian, by the way?

If you were not at Pentecost, how do you know what was said there?

***He was at Pentecost also? ***

The Holy Spirit commissioned the Church at Pentecost. I’m sorry if you don’t have any Scriptural knowledge.

How do you know that?
You already said that you weren't there.

***Then why does he sit on a throne holding a scepter and wear a crown on his head and have people kneel before him and kiss his feet?***

Who? The Pope? He doesn’t wear a crown. Who kisses the Pope’s feet? Are you well?

Why are you avoiding the question?
Kissing the Pope's Toe

***Will he wash my feet?***

He is the servant of the servants of God. If you are a servant of God, then he may. If you are a servant of the brightest angel, as you seem to indicate, then he probably will not.

How does he know that, those who he thinks are the servants God, are not really just the brightest angels?


Your tagline says: "I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so."

Have you not placed your faith in the Catholic Church?

Can they save you from damnation?

[MarkBsnr]

***We have history and the documentation of the last 2000 years. What claims do you have?

It is still only the history and documentation as recorded by those who claim it to be true. ***

I see. So you would dismiss the Bible as well? It is the history and documentation of those who claim it to be true.

***No, I don’t hear the voices. I understand that there is treatment for audio psychosis. Have you availed yourself of it?

Then how do you know he said it? ***

I believe in the message of Jesus Christ. I am not Gnostic, as many Protestants seem to be.

***I’m sorry to break the news to you that the Church of Christ is the Church of Christ. Commissioned by the Holy Spirit. Who founded your church?

It is still Catechism written by men. ***

Authorized by the Holy Spirit. You didn’t answer the question.

***I understand there to be only one Pentecost. I was not at it; perhaps you were at some of the ones that you understand there to be. Are you Christian, by the way?

If you were not at Pentecost, how do you know what was said there? ***

Scripture and the Church tell me. You didn’t answer the question.

***Who? The Pope? He doesn’t wear a crown. Who kisses the Pope’s feet? Are you well?

Why are you avoiding the question?
Kissing the Pope’s Toe***

What is the crown that you claim the Pope wears and who kisses his toe? Try some other sources than hysterical sites.

***He is the servant of the servants of God. If you are a servant of God, then he may. If you are a servant of the brightest angel, as you seem to indicate, then he probably will not.

How does he know that, those who he thinks are the servants God, are not really just the brightest angels?***

Jesus promised His church. If you do not follow His Church, then what are His promises to you? The brightest angel prowls like a lion seeking devour all that he can. Much of what is referred to as Christianity has fallen under his influence. Women bishops; homosexual marriages and denial of transubstantiation. There are so many who call themselves Christian who fall into this category.

***Your tagline says: “I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.”***

A quote from St. Augustine. The premiere Doctor of the Church. Are you that unlearned that you do not know of this quote?

***Have you not placed your faith in the Catholic Church?

Can they save you from damnation?**

The Church is the creation of Jesus Christ. I do not dare to reject His gifts to all mankind and to me specifically. Do you count yourself among those?

[Petronski]

The source for "kissing the Pope's toe" is Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, E. Cobham Brewer, 1894

Do you expect to be taken seriously when you make claims like this?

[Fichori]

The Catholic Church has printed, signed, and certified its own certificate of authenticity.

It has only its own word that it is the true church.

"If you do not follow His Church," [excerpt]

Jesus said, follow me, not, follow my church.

“I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.”
(A quote from St. Augustine. The premiere Doctor of the Church.)

That only shows that Dr Augustine was bowing to the authority of the Catholic Church.

By holding a gun to someones head you can often get them to confess to a belief in just about anything.


Unless there is something that is not only not created by the Catholic Church but also has authority over them, something that certifies them to be the one true church, they are nothing more than religious bullies.

[MarkBsnr]

***The Catholic Church has printed, signed, and certified its own certificate of authenticity.***

You bet. It’s called the Bible.

***It has only its own word that it is the true church.***

Look inside its certificate of authority for those words.

***Jesus said, follow me, not, follow my church.***

1 Tim 3:
14
6 I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.
15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Jesus said to His Apostles, as He gathered them to follow Him. He was there physically. After Jesus Ascended to Heaven, He left His Church. St. Paul knew what He intended.

***

“I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.”
(A quote from St. Augustine. The premiere Doctor of the Church.)

That only shows that Dr Augustine was bowing to the authority of the Catholic Church.

By holding a gun to someones head you can often get them to confess to a belief in just about anything.***

Are you saying that somebody held a gun to the head of the greatest Doctor of the Church and forced him to contribute to the development of Church doctrine and understanding? That’s one of the funniest things I’ve heard here and there have been some hilarious claims. I thank you for this morning’s hilarity.

***Unless there is something that is not only not created by the Catholic Church but also has authority over them, something that certifies them to be the one true church, they are nothing more than religious bullies.***

I’d take that up with Jesus Christ during Judgement; the Church is His - created by Him and commissioned by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. If you spurn it, that’s up to you.

[Fichori]

***The Catholic Church has printed, signed, and certified its own certificate of authenticity.***

You bet. It’s called the Bible.

***It has only its own word that it is the true church.***

Look inside its certificate of authority for those words.

Ok, lets have a look in the good book and see what it says about confirming something:

¶ If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 5:31

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 3:17

Christ said that if he were to bear witness of himself, his witness would not be true.
The Catholic Church bears witness of itself.

***Jesus said, follow me, not, follow my church.***

1 Tim 3:
14
6 I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.
15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Jesus said to His Apostles, as He gathered them to follow Him. He was there physically. After Jesus Ascended to Heaven, He left His Church. St. Paul knew what He intended.

Was his call of follow me only physical?

I don't think so!

What profit is there for a man who is condemned to hell to walk where Jesus Christ walked?

None!

***Unless there is something that is not only not created by the Catholic Church but also has authority over them, something that certifies them to be the one true church, they are nothing more than religious bullies.***

I’d take that up with Jesus Christ during Judgement; the Church is His - created by Him and commissioned by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. If you spurn it, that’s up to you.

Sorry, thats not going to cut the mustard.

Even Christ while on earth had someone who was greater than himself bear witness of his authenticity.

The Catholic Church does not have that.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen.

THE AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE
by William Webster

"Scripture has authority, as both Roman Catholics and evangelical Protestants will agree, because it is the Word of God. But Scripture is not the Word of God merely because the Church says it is. Scripture's authority is derived from its intrinsic nature as a communication from God to man — it has an authority independent of the Church. In this chapter we want to examine the nature of that authority and the claim that Scripture is inspired by God and thereby trustworthy..."

The RCC has so mangled the Scriptures by adding to them such perverse doctrines as infallible popes and prayers to dead people and the alchemy of transubstantion that it has shown itself to be very far from the church instituted and guided by Jesus Christ.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Then why does he sit on a throne holding a scepter and wear a crown on his head and have people kneel before him and kiss his feet?

As if those blasphemous, grievous presumptions weren't enough to condemn him, he and his underlings call themselves "another Christ."

When a person really studies what the RCC is dishing out, it becomes clear Rome is serving a plateful of bitter weeds.

THE AMAZING GIFT OF THE PRIESTHOOD
by Father Kenneth Baker

"...Simply stated, the Catholic priest is another Christ. Through his ordination he has been granted the amazing gift of being a channel of divine grace for the eternal salvation of those he come into contact with — both in his official ministry and in his personal life..."

[Alex Murphy]

Without the Church, how are you certain that your relationship is with Christ and not the brightest angel?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers....
....My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
- John 10:1-5, 27-29

***No fiat from a man in Italy can nullify my personal relationship with Christ.***

What, is the Holy See trying to bribe converts by giving out ugly automobiles now?