Violence in Early Mormonism - Was It All Unjust Persecution?

MRM ^ | Bill McKeever

[Old Mountain man]

I remember it vaguely but I don’t remember the publication. Remember the things that any homicide cop will tell you: if the murder isn’t about sex, follow the money.

[TheThirdRuffian]

“Sorry, but I don’t know what you are talking about. . . joined in 1994”

Me, I would strive to know about the theology and teachings of a place that claims to be the “true church” to see if maybe, just maybe, its teaching were theologically consistent -— or perhaps just change with the wind.

Here is a link to the pre-1981 ritual:

http://nowscape.com/mormon/mormcr1.htm#part_10

[ejonesie22]

Joseph Smith had a private militia, a private army for his city in Illinois, many of whom were former members of “Danites” vigilante group. The state did give Smith broad powers in creating Nauvoo, including the right to form a group of soldiers. I find it odd that he felt the need to do so. I am very curious why a prophet needs an army.

Also it did not take Illinois long to regret the decision and this "Militia" became “extra-legal” for the remainder of it's existence. It was never formally a “sanctioned” part of the Illinois militia organization, though they did finally make up the Utah National Guard in 1894 after much federal pressure.

[SkyPilot]

Oh, Lordy, he mentioned the SkyPilot. Oh, I’m so afraid.

I thought you didn't want me to post to you anymore?

So I didn't.

But since you did, how about we talk - in a civil manner.

Concerning this particular thread, I found the arguments that Joeseph Smith was not a "martry" at all to be with foundation - simply because Smith was in jail for offenses which would be considered criminal even today....to wit:

- Threats and Assault {Intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative}

- Destruction of Private Property {Willful injury to private building and or property. Damage to materials of construction project. Arson. Trespass, generally, and other offenses.}

- Felonious Sexual Assault {Engages in sexual penetration with a person, other than his legal spouse, who is 13 years of age or older and under 16 years of age where the age difference between the actor and the other person is 3 years or more}**

**Joseph Smith's youngest sexual assault victim was 14 years old. Her name was HELEN MAR KIMBALL

______________________________________________________________________

You won't find Jesus Christ's history in such a terrible shambles and horrific mess such as this. He was a true martyr - and He paid for all of our sins with His blood.

The biggest problem with Joseph Smith Old Mountain man was his pursuit of women. His adulterous lust led to his downfall.

Our Sunday's sermon was about the attitude we should have as Christian believers. Paul was literally in chains in Phillipi. Yet, he rejoiced in that, because he knew he was preaching to the Pretorian Guard (the elite to Caesar) who were chained to him to guard him. He took joy in the fact that the cause of Christ was being spread in the open.

12Now I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel. 13As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guard[a] and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ. 14Because of my chains, most of the brothers in the Lord have been encouraged to speak the word of God more courageously and fearlessly. 15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.[b] 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, 19for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.[c] 20I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

Philippians 1: 12-20

I admire Paul's attitude towards the cause of Jesus Christ. He wanted to either live or die to spread the good news of Christ to the lost.

Joseph Smith wanted to suppress the publication of his sins and crimes in a newspaper, and he murdered people before he was himself killed before he could kill any more.

That is quite a difference.

One last thing - the Masonic details and their use in Mormonism should trouble you greatly.

If you have any questions about them, Freeper Zakeet can send you information.

Source.

Thanks.

[MHGinTN]

Oh my, that ‘star’ on the right is most telling. They honor Baphomet and don’t even care! I guess, since they claim The Holy Spirit is their spirit brother, satanic symbols are more acceptable.

[SkyPilot]

That is from the Nauvoo Temple.

It is the Inverted Pentagram.

Used in witchcraft and occult rituals to conjure up evil spirits. Satanists use it 2 points up and pagans use it one point up.

I am sure the ridicule is about to come, but that does not negate the facts here. The FBI recognizes this symbol when investigating Satanic cults and crimes.

Now....what is it doing on the Nauvoo Temple?

[ejonesie22]

Using facts...

What a low blow...

[Graybeard58]

What was that that R.R. said? “Everybody is entitled to their own facts but not their own opinion”

No, that wasn’t it. Something along those lines somewhere.

[P-Marlowe]

That is from the Nauvoo Temple. It is the Inverted Pentagram. Now....what is it doing on the Nauvoo Temple?

Obviously it is one of their "Sacred" Secrets. My guess is that it is representative of the Angel who visited Joseph Smith and brought him the golden plates.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15 KJV)

[ejonesie22]

Yeah, but some how it fits in this case....

[Graybeard58]

Some facts are easier to deal with than others. I have never been a Mormon but if I were, I’d be hard pressed to deal with facts presented on these threads, many of which are from Mormon sources.

I feel sorry for the Mormons here, it must be terribly difficult to cling to long held beliefs when shown absolute and incontrovertible truth to the contrary, from their own sources, yet I don’t understand a mind set that will cling to a lie, no matter what.

[ejonesie22]

Well made up facts are considered fiction by most.

And yes, in away I am sympathetic, especially to those who are doing things by rote, and not grasping at all the facts presented due to their ingrained blindness and life long indoctrination. It is sadly obvious that much of it is a scam, albeit a well played one.

Then there are those who benefit, more than likely finically, who actively try and confuse whilst selling the product. No sympathy there...

[Old Mountain man]

Well, let’s see, it’s been a long time since I looked it up, but the rash of accusations you make against the Prophet Joseph Smith are not contained in any official record. It seems that the governor slapped him in jail for Treason. Interesting charge.

I find that the method of trial was quite interesting also, something only a protestant could love. Trial by lynch mob. Wow, that gives real validity to the courage of the mob, doesn’t it?

You make much about whether or not Joseph fired on the mob or not. What difference does that make? Since when does a lynch mob deserve preservation from defensive measures of the intended victim?

Is lynching the preferred method of handling problems in your church? It is NOT in mine.

[Old Mountain man]

I do not go to anti-mormon sites. Would you like me to post some anti protestant stuff? Will that make you feel better?

[SkyPilot]

Well, let’s see, it’s been a long time since I looked it up, but the rash of accusations you make against the Prophet Joseph Smith are not contained in any official record.

Well, let's see. What 'official record' are you referring to?

Your church record, or what I can post from history?

It seems that the governor slapped him in jail for Treason. Interesting charge.

Well, if we really want to deal with historical facts, then we have to deal with historical facts. Those other charges that I told you Smith would be charge of even today (including screwing a 14 year old little girl) were true, but you know those were not the total of his crimes. What led to his shoot out where he killed men and he himself was subsequently shot were charges such as these:

Charge 1:

INCITING A RIOT: Smith was imprisoned in Carthage, Illinois, and charged with inciting a riot after he attempted to destroy a newspaper that exposed the Mormon's practice of polygamy.

You mentioned he was charged with Treason, which is true. You neglected the second charge: Charge 2:

Despite Joseph's surrender, he was charged with treason for appearing in Missouri in command of an armed force, and was also charged with plotting the murder of a Missouri gentile killed in a skirmish with Mormons.

Murder?

Murder.....

Strange how you left that historical fact our Old Mountain man? Murder.

I find that the method of trial was quite interesting also, something only a protestant could love. Trial by lynch mob. Wow, that gives real validity to the courage of the mob, doesn’t it?

Mormon Fairy Tales do not equal Reality.

Joseph Smith was in jail for a reason. He was also an adulterous man who sexually abused a girl who was 14 years old.

Her name was Helen Mar Kimball.

Helen Mar Kimball

She was just a little girl.

Perhaps you could remember her in your prayers.

You make much about whether or not Joseph fired on the mob or not. What difference does that make? Since when does a lynch mob deserve preservation from defensive measures of the intended victim?

Well, let's see. JS wasn't a "victim." He was a criminal and a fugitive.

The same as a sexual predator who was recently arrested here in New Jersey for sodomizing a 14 year old girl.

Perhaps he should claim he was a "Prophet" to the judge?

Is lynching the preferred method of handling problems in your church? It is NOT in mine.

No, we prefer prayer.

[Godzilla]

Now....what is it doing on the Nauvoo Temple?

One of the most important predictions regarding the Book of Mormon is that found in the 29th chapter of Isaiah. The prophet here speaks of a people who should be like Ariel, the city where David dwelt. They should have heaviness and sorrow and should be brought down to speak out of the ground, and their speech was to be low out of the dust, and their voice was to be as of one that had a familiar spirit. (Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.213)

There are 15 Old Testament references to "familiar spirits," and every one of them refer to mediums in witchcraft, including Is. 29:4 (Lev. 20:6; Duet. 18:10-12). If the LDS believe the B. of M. has a "familiar spirit," they are identifying it with witchcraft!

[MHGinTN]

Well, that settles it. Time to get the popcorn popper fired up ... nothing twists satan’s tail like exposing him. [Wonder if I can find a nice bottle of Ruby Port to have a sip with my popcorn?]

[Godzilla]

Well, that settles it. Time to get the popcorn popper fired up ... nothing twists satan’s tail like exposing him.

[SkyPilot]

I don't see many (or any so far) LDS showing up here definding the Inverted Pentagram being on their Temple.

I wonder why that is?

[Old Mountain man]

If lynch mobs are not your preferred method of handling problems, why the hell do you support this one with such force? As you well know, Joseph was never convicted of any crime. None. Zip. Nada.

Lynch mob of protestants killed him, his brother, etc. Not the other way around.