Posted on 05/16/2008 3:19:30 PM PDT by netmilsmom
Stemming from this comment
>>I think the RCC doctrines are a product of the enemy<<
Please tell us where we stand here. Examples welcome, but I'm not sure that actual names can be used when quoting another FReeper, so date and thread title may be better.
The radicals of the Reformation, the Anabaptists (of whom mainly Mennonites are the modern descendant) said that Rome was so bad as to be not Christian. Modern Baptists and similar groups on the hyper-fundamentalist side may also condemn all Roman Catholics. They are, like Roman Catholic “fundamentalists” who condemn all non-Catholics, in a tiny minority, now, and in the past.
Great post, and well-said. About the only thing I would disagree with is the "tiny" in "tiny minority" part.
The Catholics were "involved" in the earlier parts of the war more than in the later parts when the Calvinists and the non-Calvinists showed the world what total war was about.
It's wrong to give the Catholics too much credit during that period ~ what you need to do is give the French (as Protestant or Catholic) credit.
The Swedes definitely kicked some butts though.
This period so the rise of the heavy Infantry as the major method of fighting wars.
The whole point is that I do not go out of my way to call someone or their belief heretical unless it is clearly backed up by scripture. When I argued with them, my argument used scripture, their argument did not. When my argument was too convincing, they then used the “personal inturpretation” method of argument. In other words, they never had a convincing argument that proved whether I was heretical or not, they just called it as they saw it and ignored my protestations. It got to the point where I just ignored them. I don’t post to them any more.
I rarely ping the RM, in fact, I think I only did it once, and it refered to this very thing. Also, I do not name names.
There are thousands of Protestant churches, so the answer depends on which Protestant church you're referring to. From my perspective as a Catholic, I'd say about 90% of the protestant churches out there accept basic Christian doctrine that has existed over the centuries so they're legit Christians. Pretty much all the Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Presybertarian, etc. churches would fit this catergory. On the other hand, Unitarians would probably fit the "Protestant" label, and that church won't even say for sure if Christ is divine. Are they true "Christians"? I think not.
I believe that anyone who believes that Jesus is his savior is a Christian.
I think there are Catholics that go to church and follow all the rituals that are not Christians.
I also think there are Protestants that go to church and follow their rituals that are not Christians.
I think both Catholics and Protestant religions are probably wrong on some things. Neither is perfect because they are institutes made by man, and man is fallible.
It’s up to God to figure out the heart of a person.
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born ?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be ?
3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved
. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
3:24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
They’re just making this up as they go along.
There are saved and unsaved people in every church. Remember the parable of the sower of the seed.
I’m not a Protestant, but Catholics are obviously Christians.
LOL! We don’t have quite so narrow a definition of Christianity. If you believe Jesus Christ is your Savior and Redeemer, and there is no other way to return to God’s presence, I think you pretty much qualify as a Christian as far as I’m concerned.
Of course, before you can say who is a Christian, you need to provide a definition.
Come on, you can't just throw that out there and not provide references!
Another post, just recently downloaded, that clearly says that if I am not Catholic, I am not saved, therefore, going to hell. Just thought you would like to know.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2017127/posts
You missed one...
Changing of the Baptism..............325 A.D.
Please tell us where we stand here. Examples welcome
The Lord Jesus was a Protestant and He said:
“So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 24:44-51.
This parable from my Protestant Leader clearly admits the possibility that the servant left in charge of feeding all the servants of the master might forget about the Second Coming, get drunk and begin to beat his fellow servants. That’s exactly the Protestant interpretation of Church history. The hierarchy of the Church did persecute those who were entrusted to their care.
Because the wicked, oppressive servant is called a servant just like the faithful servants, I’d say that those in the Catholic hierarchy have a valid claim to call themselves Christians.
He was, I believe, the first French King to have an official "Mistress".
This one guy is pretty typical of his time ~ for both Protestants and Catholics!
Gabrielle D’Estrees became King Henry IV’s mistress when she was 20 years old
The Catechism’s explanation is difficult to harmonize with very specific statements by past popes, which were often referred to by the phrase : “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus” (”Outside the Church there is no salvation”). According to the Saint Benedict Center, this doctrine of the Catholic Faith “...was taught By Jesus Christ to His Apostles, preached by the Fathers, defined by popes and councils and piously believed by the faithful in every age of the Church.” 13
Pope Innocent III: “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.
Pope Boniface VIII: “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” From his Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.
Pope Eugene IV: “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” From his Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
I took quadrant to mean “Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox.” It looks like muawiyah understood something altogether different. Off the top of my head I thought of the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed.
Muawiyah, what did you think the third one was?
I am a Protestant by childhood and adult decision. I have my beliefs but I cannot know the mind of the Almighty and His Infinite Love, that being the case I believe that to accept Christ is to be a Christian. If it is a Roman Catholic or Baptist or Mennonite, there are different doctrines but prayerfully we will all come out in the end,
"For the Son of man became man so that we might become God. The only begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods." (page 116, #460)
That right there tells us pretty much all we need to know about Rome. Rome believes the church turns men into gods by infusing righteousness into them and turning them into perfect creatures. Voila! A god.
Therefore perhaps it's not such a stretch to believe Mary was "sinless" and Mary is the "co-redeemer" and a "pope is infallible" and a priest is "another Christ."
Whereas the Bible instructs and the Reformation restated that all men are fallen and the only thing that saves anyone is Christ's righteousness mercifully imputed to the believer by grace through faith.
So it's probably easy for Rome to curse Protestants because Protestants are outside the RCC and do not believe they become a god in any way. Christ indwells us, but He remains always Christ and we remain always the creature, 100% guilty but 100% acquitted of our sins by Christ's rightousness through His atoning work on the cross.
Our differences really seem profound some days.
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