Why so many LDS threads?

08-May-2008 | Grig

[Grig]

I am posting this on behalf of many LDS freepers. They will post their own 'signature' to this in the comments below. --- Some of you have noticed lately a lot of LDS (ie: Mormon) threads here on FR. I'm going to tell you why.

For many years there have been several active LDS freepers here. We post to all the forums on relevant issues, and were happy to have a site where conservative values were so openly welcomed.

Those conservative values include faith in God, and freedom of religion. We fully respect the rights of all posters to express their opinions and views on religious matters, even when people choose to use those rights to express criticism of our own faith. We also support the ideas embodied in FR rules against religion bashing. There is no need for hostility and there should be no room for bigotry on FR. Every religion has it's miracles and mysteries. Every faith has things in it that are not or can not be proven, and things that run contrary to what secular science would have us believe. Someone mature and confident in their own faith generally doesn't feel the need to belittle the faith of others.

We have, to the best of our ability, conducted ourselves with civility and dignity. We do not feel that that respect has been returned by some posters (putting it mildly).

When Mormon missionaries were murdered, the moderators were kept busy pulling jubilant posts off the thread. When Elizabeth Smart was abducted from her home, we contended for months with posters who appeared to be motivated by religious bigotry doing all they could to smear the family and accuse the father. Several posters openly admitted their religious motivation in opposing Mitt Romney and confessed that no matter how conservative any Mormon was, they would never vote for one for President of the USA. When the Pope died, I don't think any Mormon poster posted anything unkind, yet the thread about the passing of our President recently needed many comments removed.

Nearly every thread having any connection with Mormons, or Utah winds up being hijacked by anti-Mormon activists who copy and paste the same false accusations over and over even when it has been clearly and factually pointed out to them on multiple occasions that they are bearing false witness against our faith. Everything possible is done by these activists to make FR a hostile place for Mormons, and for at least some of them, bashing Mormonism is all they do here. Their most recent project is trying to blur the fact that the polygamous FLDS is a separate and distinct religion from ours, just as Lutherans are a separate and distinct religion from Catholicism.

In our opinion, such poster do a great disservice to FR and to their fellow freepers by spreading disinformation and promoting hostility towards a people known for walking the walk of conservative values.

Why the moderators here don't see the behavior of these anti-Mormon activists as religion bashing is a mystery to us, but it is the moderators call to make and we respect their right to do so. That doesn't mean we have to be passive however. We have all spent many hours refuting the accusations leveled at our faith, but these wind up buried deep in a flood of comments, effectively shouting us down.

Recently some of us have decided to take a more proactive approach. Rather than try to wrestle the pig into taking a bath, we are just going to hose it down. We will actively define our faith here rather than just respond to accusations.

So expect to see lots of Mormon threads, now and for as long as we see fit to keep posting them (although probably not as many as there are Catholic threads). They will be about our basic doctrines and responses to common accusations. If you want to know what our faith is about, read the articles we post. We will post them as open threads and I encourage you to compare the difference in tone and spirit between what we post and what our critics say.

[Quester]

It seems to me that you can't reasonably occupy the position that there are no revelations from God, no testimony of his truths (scriptures), and at same time say the Holy Spirit guides and comforts you every day. Please explain how you can hold both positions.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would bring the ministry of Christ to our remembrance, as opposed to bringing us new revelation.

So, of course, the Holy Spirit does, in fact, unfold already existing scripture to us, and leads, guides, and comforts us with those same scriptures.

[MHGinTN]

But but but ... where is room for the mormon perspective of making God a debtor to the good works of mormons in that ministry of the Holy Spirit?... ‘Isn’t the function of religion to manipulate God?’ the mormon apologist might ask. /sarc

[DelphiUser]

I Said: It seems to me that you can't reasonably occupy the position that there are no revelations from God, no testimony of his truths (scriptures), and at same time say the Holy Spirit guides and comforts you every day. Please explain how you can hold both positions.

I Said: Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would bring the ministry of Christ to our remembrance, as opposed to bringing us new revelation.

So, of course, the Holy Spirit does, in fact, unfold already existing scripture to us, and leads, guides, and comforts us with those same scriptures.

So your contention is that the Holy Spirit is now only testifies of the Gospel in the past tense? If you are receiving Guidance day by day isn't that new guidance?

I fear I am not completely understanding what you are saying, would you like to go private and explain it to me?

[Quester]

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would bring the ministry of Christ to our remembrance, as opposed to bringing us new revelation.

So, of course, the Holy Spirit does, in fact, unfold already existing scripture to us, and leads, guides, and comforts us with those same scriptures.

So your contention is that the Holy Spirit is now only testifies of the Gospel in the past tense? If you are receiving Guidance day by day isn't that new guidance?

The gospel message itself won't change ... or be added to.

The Holy Spirit helps to understand the gospel which was once given ... and helps us to live consistently as believers in the gospel.

It's like learning to use mathematics.

Mathematics itself doesn't change ... the teacher simply helps you to understand it ... and how to apply it.

[DelphiUser]

U SaidJesus said that the Holy Spirit would bring the ministry of Christ to our remembrance, as opposed to bringing us new revelation.

So, of course, the Holy Spirit does, in fact, unfold already existing scripture to us, and leads, guides, and comforts us with those same scriptures.

I SaidSo your contention is that the Holy Spirit now only testifies of the Gospel in the past tense? If you are receiving Guidance day by day isn't that new guidance?

U SaidThe gospel message itself won't change ... or be added to.

If you are a Catholic, this change or be added to makes sense.

Do you believe that the Catholic church has never added a new doctrine, and that it has never changed a doctrine that was held before?

(The Nicene Creed, the Assumption of Mary, sale of indulgences and the creation of "Saints" that can be prayed to come to mind)

If you are a protestant, the very nature of your church belies your argument for Protestants "protested" changes in the Catholic church and were created as reformations to the Catholic church



This simplified chart shows what I am talking about, all protestant churches by very definition agree with us that the Catholic church messed up and lost their way. By their very definition, the Gospel at one point needed to be restored, because Man can't reform the church of God.

U SaidThe Holy Spirit helps to understand the gospel which was once given ... and helps us to live consistently as believers in the gospel.

Then why are there so many churches? that you accept as Christian? Again, you are occupying two positions, all these churches which are "Christian" argue and bicker among themselves (I've seen some of the Catholic threads here, and looked at one on Baptists, participated (because I was asked) in one where "Christians" tried to define exactly what it means to be "saved", that was fun to watch. and you want to tell me that because you are all "Christian", and all have the Holy Spirit indwelling you are living consistently as believers. I am a truly amazed that you think that Orthodox Christianity is consistent.

U SaidIt's like learning to use mathematics.

There are many branches of mathematics...


If you stick with Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication and Division and stay away from anything resembling higher mathematics, your assertion might hold a little water, but as soon as you start applying math to the real world, there's a new theory every day. Then we cold talk about Quantum mechanics, String theory, or Nuclear physics...

U SaidMathematics itself doesn't change ... the teacher simply helps you to understand it ... and how to apply it.

So now we just threw all your prior logic out the window, there is the Gospel and it's complete because God knows all, but we mere mortals need to have pieces of it revealed to us. At this point there can be a complete and constant Gospel plan and new revelation to man every day as God reveals what we need to know today (closer to what I believe than what you were just saying...)

Try this: The Gospel does not change, but there are parts that you don't understand.

Let's play with that, and I'm going to use some things I know you will disagree with because I am specifically trying to get your perspective. The Book of Mormon for example has not changed, you just didn't know it was God's word before, God is now introducing you to it.

Are you happy with that?

I didn't think so.

How about this: All the prophecies of Joseph smith about his death, the Civil War and where it would start, the church moving west, God knew about all of that long before the world was created, he just told Joseph and it was new to us.

Happy with that?

That all fits within what you are now saying with your example of math, yet you are sure there can be no such thing as a new (to us) witness for God. You are sure that the Holy Spirit can inspire you every day, but he can't tell me something he has not told you.

The only way that makes sense is if you know everything.

That's why I am confused about how you can say, logically what you just said.

Either the holy spirit does not talk to Man, Or the Holy spirit reveals things that man didn't know before. If the Holy Spirit reveals things man didn't know before, how can you say it won't reveal something you don't know now?

By definition, you are occupying two incompatible positions, the Cognitive dissonance from my perspective is amazing!

[DelphiUser]

But but but ... where is room for the mormon perspective of making God a debtor to the good works of mormons in that ministry of the Holy Spirit?... ‘Isn’t the function of religion to manipulate God?’ the mormon apologist might ask. /sarc

If you want in on the conversation, Post to me, this thing you do is really childish.

By presenting the "Mormon perspective" you are telling us what we believe, stop it, mind reading is not allowed on this forum.

God is our Creditor, not our debtor, we owe him more than we can possibly ever repay.

The Mormon perspective: Mosiah 2: 14 - 26

14 And even I, myself, have labored with mine own hands that I might serve you, and that ye should not be laden with taxes, and that there should nothing come upon you which was grievous to be borne—and of all these things which I have spoken, ye yourselves are witnesses this day.
15 Yet, my brethren, I have not done these things that I might boast, neither do I tell these things that thereby I might accuse you; but I tell you these things that ye may know that I can answer a clear conscience before God this day.
16 Behold, I say unto you that because I said unto you that I had spent my days in your service, I do not desire to boast, for I have only been in the service of God.
17 And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.
18 Behold, ye have called me your king; and if I, whom ye call your king, do labor to serve you, then ought not ye to labor to serve one another?
19 And behold also, if I, whom ye call your king, who has spent his days in your service, and yet has been in the service of God, do merit any thanks from you, O how you ought to thank your heavenly King!
20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.
22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.
23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.
24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?
25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.
26 And I, even I, whom ye call your king, am no better than ye yourselves are; for I am also of the dust. And ye behold that I am old, and am about to yield up this mortal frame to its mother earth.

You are specifically, directly and completely wrong in your presentation of the "Mormon perspective", I hope it was an accident.

[MHGinTN]

I pay insurance premiums for accidents. When a truck full of logic runs over you, DU, it might not be an accident. BTW, are you a moderator that you can order me to ‘stop it’? Is one of your apologist friends a FreeRepublic Moderator?

[Religion Moderator]

Don't let this thread become a discussion of individual Freepers. That is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[DelphiUser]

My apologies If I was “making it personal”, I apologise it was not my intent.

[DelphiUser]

U Said: I pay insurance premiums for accidents.

That is wonderful, I commend you for your civic responsibility and I firmly hope you never either at fault in an accident, nor even in an accident.

U Said: When a truck full of logic runs over you, DU, it might not be an accident.

I sincerely hope that is not threat, assuming that it is merely an awkward attempt at humor, I will endeavor to stay away from such vehicles by continuing to debate the issues with you.

U Said: BTW, are you a moderator that you can order me to ‘stop it’?

No, but I can read the Religion Moderator's page where it says:

On all threads, but particularly “open” threads, posters must never “make it personal.” Reading minds and attributing motives are forms of “making it personal.” Making a thread “about” another Freeper is “making it personal.”

You are not a Mormon. It is impossible for you to share a perspective you do not posses without mind reading. Please stop it, I'd much rather beat anyone (or be beaten) in the area of Ideas then see them banned. I was in a discussion that wound up in my opponent being banned, I still feel bad about that, even though he was banned for giving the RM lip IIRC.

U Said: Is one of your apologist friends a FreeRepublic Moderator?

I don't know, I do not pretend to know who the RM is, I am of the opinion that several people take turns, because even moderators need to sleep. The RM seems to have taken an interest in this thread however for I have not pinged him/her/them.

[greyfoxx39]

Regarding forum rules, here is the section on "open" threads, of which this is one: Open threads are a town square. Antagonism though not encouraged, should be expected

Posters may argue for or against beliefs of any kind. They may tear down other’s beliefs. They may ridicule. On all threads, but particularly “open” threads, posters must never “make it personal.” Reading minds and attributing motives are forms of “making it personal.” Making a thread “about” another Freeper is “making it personal.”

When in doubt, review your use of the pronoun “you” before hitting “enter.”

Like the Smoky Backroom, the conversation may be offensive to some.

Thin-skinned posters will be booted from “open” threads because in the town square, they are the disrupters.

[DelphiUser]

Regarding forum rules, here is the section on "open" threads, of which this is one: Open threads are a town square. Antagonism though not encouraged, should be expected

Antagonism is not a problem, saying you are presenting my church's perspective when you are not a member is mind reading.

Thin-skinned posters will be booted from “open” threads because in the town square, they are the disrupters.

RM, I am sorry to bother you, would you be so good as to confirm to these good gentlemen that I did not ping you on any of the occasions you have had to admonish MHGinTN on this thread? Thank you in advance.

I am not thin skinned, I don't even mind when I am called names by Anti Mormons because IMHO they make themselves look worse than I possibly could by name calling. (not that either of you would ever stoop to such a thing.)

Have nice day now...

[Religion Moderator]

You did not ping me.

[Godzilla]

Antagonism is not a problem, saying you are presenting my church's perspective when you are not a member is mind reading.

The concept of mind reading is very clear from the RM's page. Reading minds and attributing motives are forms of “making it personal.” It represents the very personal you and organizations (or beliefs) as a whole are exempt and open to discussion. (When in doubt, review your use of the pronoun “you” before hitting “enter.”).

Since you are a mormon and not a Christian - any thing you would say about Christian doctrine or beliefs would be mind reading. You would therefore need to censor yourself. If the incorrect doctrine is being presented - present the official one from your standard works. The RM has far more to deal with than a trivial complaint on something as clear as this.

[DelphiUser]

Since you are a mormon and not a Christian

Mormons are by definition Christians because we believe in Christ the same way Buddhists of any denomination follow the teachings of Buddha, Taoists follow the path, and Moslems of all stripes follow Mohamed...

Mormons are not "Orthodox Christians", but we are Christians according to any reasonable definition, the name of the church after all is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", Mormon is a nickname.

any thing you would say about Christian doctrine or beliefs would be mind reading. You would therefore need to censor yourself.

These statements are not true because the supposition they were based on is not true.

I did not ask MHG to stop because he quoted Mormon Doctrine accurately (that would be ... refreshing), Nor did he say Mormons believe... and accurately reflect our published statements of belief (again, that would be refreshing) instead MHG purported to be able to give our perspective, and then misstated what our perspective is surely Godzilla, you will disavow any such intellectually dishonest tactic, right?

If the incorrect doctrine is being presented - present the official one from your standard works.

I did exactly that in Post # 1906.

Mosiah 2: 14 - 26

14 And even I, myself, have labored with mine own hands that I might serve you, and that ye should not be laden with taxes, and that there should nothing come upon you which was grievous to be borne—and of all these things which I have spoken, ye yourselves are witnesses this day.
15 Yet, my brethren, I have not done these things that I might boast, neither do I tell these things that thereby I might accuse you; but I tell you these things that ye may know that I can answer a clear conscience before God this day.
16 Behold, I say unto you that because I said unto you that I had spent my days in your service, I do not desire to boast, for I have only been in the service of God.
17 And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.
18 Behold, ye have called me your king; and if I, whom ye call your king, do labor to serve you, then ought not ye to labor to serve one another?
19 And behold also, if I, whom ye call your king, who has spent his days in your service, and yet has been in the service of God, do merit any thanks from you, O how you ought to thank your heavenly King!
20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.
22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.
23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.
24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?
25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.
26 And I, even I, whom ye call your king, am no better than ye yourselves are; for I am also of the dust. And ye behold that I am old, and am about to yield up this mortal frame to its mother earth.

See?

The RM has far more to deal with than a trivial complaint on something as clear as this.

I Did not complain to the RM, If you had been reading the thread you would know that. In any of our long drawn out postings back and Forth did I ever appeal to the RM?

Even when you resorted to calling me Fluffy and started posing pictures of that cute little adorable puppy? (which was supposed to be me, I guess)

I did not call the Mod then, and I am not calling the Mod now. My skin (some would say Skull) is plenty thick enough to weather the vicious, scathing, unreasoning, unreasonable and pathetic attacks that I have yet to field on FreeRepublic... (any detectable attempts at humor are not entirely accidental)

Have a great day Godzilla, believe it or not, it's good to see you back, and posting smaller posts to respond to... Thanks!

RM, when you read this, if you do, I did not include you because I did no think it necessary, please correct me if I am in error on that.

[Godzilla]

Mormons are not "Orthodox Christians", but we are Christians according to any reasonable definition,

Sorry, not by any reasonable definition except the mormon one. There is not a single Christian denomination that recognizes mormonism as Christian.

You might sleep in a garage, but that doesn't make you a hot rod. If mormons are Christian, then by any reasonable definition FLDS (and all the other xLDS) are mormons too.

I did not ask MHG to stop because he quoted Mormon Doctrine accurately (that would be ... refreshing), Nor did he say Mormons believe... and accurately reflect our published statements of belief (again, that would be refreshing) instead MHG purported to be able to give our perspective, and then misstated what our perspective is surely Godzilla, you will disavow any such intellectually dishonest tactic, right?

What would be intellectually refreshing is not to misdirect a challange to a belief system as mind reading - which is what happened out of the gate. If the post was misguided - deal with it on that level, not whine about it.

Even when you resorted to calling me Fluffy and started posing pictures of that cute little adorable puppy? (which was supposed to be me, I guess)

Seriously humor challenged.

Have a great day Godzilla, believe it or not, it's good to see you back, and posting smaller posts to respond to... Thanks!

Only for a short while, gone tomorrow til ?????. But then I see your responses to some continue to grow exponentially and still not address their questions.

[greyfoxx39]

DU, a "church" or religion is not a "person"...a church or religion is not referred to as "you".

The mind-reading rule simply does not apply to an inaminate object, no matter how "personally" a member of said object wishes to take a remark.

An inaminate object cannot be affected or suffer "personal" harm from alleged "vicious, scathing, unreasoning, unreasonable and pathetic attacks" because it is an object, NOT a person.

Insisting that mhgintn's remarks.(whether a correct description of mormon doctrine or not), are "mind-reading" is simply wrong.

[Tennessee Nana]

BTTT

[Gamecock]

***If mormons are Christian, then by any reasonable definition FLDS (and all the other xLDS) are mormons too.***

I’ve been trying to make that same point.

If LDS can self-define themselves a Christian, why cant the FLDS self-define themselves as Mormons? I would say that by denying the FLDS the right to self-definition while practicing that themselves (the LDS) there is just a wee bit of hypocrisy in Salt Lake City.

Interestingly I haven’t had one single FRMormon give me an answer, any answer, to this question.

[Quester]

I am not a Catholic.

From my perspective, Catholics have added to the gospel message as well.

In fact, Catholicism and Mormonism are similar in that way.

Protestants strive to build their christian belief and practice from the original documents which were compiled to make up the Bible. We've gone back to the original documents to recover the christianity of the Jesus Christ of the gospels.

That we all don't agree on every point is evidence of our own imperfection (in understanding the gospel once given) and not to any fault in the original scriptures themselves.

From my perspective, it was after Paul had cautioned the Galatians ... not to allow anyone (not even an angel) to bring to them any other gospel than that which had been once given ... that Joseph Smith showed up claiming to bring portions of the scriptures which he claimed had been lost ... but having little or no evidence to prove his case.

In other words, Joseph's original story was sketchy anyway ... and he offered no proof, no plates available to the world, no original documents in original languages, ... just his word and the affirmation of his cohorts.

This and the fact that Joseph brought religious practice which was practiced neither by the early church ... or by the contemporary Jewish community (i.e the Mason-like Mormon Temple rites and polygamy) demonstrate to Protestants and Catholics that Joseph did indeed bring another gospel, which Paul warned us to have no part of way back in the first century AD.

By the way, mathematics hasn't changed, though science certainly has. Mathematics is used to verify old and new scientific thought.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would come to bring to remembrance those things that Jesus Himself had taught.

The gospel message has been revealed once and for all time by Jesus and the apostles. The Holy Spirit teaches that same gospel message to willing hearts in successive generations from Jesus' time unto this.