Restoring the Ancient Church. Salvation History and Requirements (Mormon) Part 4

FAIRLDS ^ | Barry Robert Bickmore

[Alex Murphy]

I think the mods should be generally commended for the work they have to do. They are like umpires at baseball games. Occasionally they'll miss a call. But where would we be without umpires & referees? (Total anarchy on the field or court).

And we need to remember that ultimately they represent the "sovereign" authority of the benefactors who are willing to host these sites...We can't get on the case of the United Nations encroaching upon U.S. sovereignty if we also do not stick up for U.S. decisions protecting that sovereignty...I think there's a parallel here.

Excellent points and insight, Colorfornian. Anyone who complains about the moderators should read your post!

[Rameumptom]

>>>Why are Mormon Temple ceremonies secret to the public when the Old Testament temple ceremonies were open to public knowledge?

Ceremonies were not open to the public see Ezekiel 44-47 in the Bible.

There is a chapter in this book from the thread that addressess the long esoteric tradition of the Temples in early Christianity. I'm guessing it will be forthcoming soon. It addresses this topic in much detail. I know you can't wait.

The Holy of Holies was a place of Revelation and angelic visitation on more than one occcasion. Are you claiming that you know everything that occured there in regards to teaching and revelation? In Ezekiel we have a nice account of a conversation between God and a prophet he expressley states that some of the "public" were to be excluded from the Temple.

Ezekiel Chapter 44 1 Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, facing the east; but it was closed. 2 He said to me: This gate is to remain closed; it is not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it, it shall remain closed. 3 1 Only the prince may sit down in it to eat his meal in the presence of the LORD. He must enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and leave by the same way. 4 Then he brought me by way of the north gate to the facade of the temple, and when I looked I saw the glory of the LORD filling the LORD'S temple, and I fell prone. 5 Then he said to me: Son of man, pay strict attention, look carefully, and listen intently to all that I will tell you about the statutes and laws of the LORD'S temple; be attentive in regard to those who are to be admitted to the temple and all those who are to be excluded from the sanctuary. 6 Say to that rebellious house, the house of Israel: Thus says the Lord GOD: Enough of all these abominations of yours, O house of Israel! 7 2 You have admitted foreigners, uncircumcised both in heart and flesh, to my sanctuary to profane it when you offered me food, fat, and blood; thus you have broken my covenant by all your abominations. 8 Instead of caring for the service of my temple, you have appointed such as these to serve me in my sanctuary in your stead. 9 Thus says the Lord GOD: No foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and in flesh, shall ever enter my sanctuary; none of the foreigners who live among the Israelites.

[Antoninus]

No offense, but there is a lot of Islam bashing too. Should we post the Quran in 100 daily installments?

And Catholic bashing. Perhaps we should start posting the Catechism in News/Activism?

Sorry, but this LDS theology stuff in the News/Activism section just defies logic.

[Rameumptom]

>>>the church actually has a long history of condemning Christianity.

Yawn, in other news, Man bites Dog.

Christianity itself has an even longer history of calling each other heretics and going to war over the matter.

For example, St. Athanasius, (of Athanasian creed fame) was declared a heretic. Ann Hutchinson and Roger Williams were both exield and called heretics. Modalism is a heretical form of the Trinity but many modern lay Christians actually believe modalism.

[PetroniusMaximus]

“Yawn, in other news, Man bites Dog.”

Then wakeup, my friend, because you missed a significant point.

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“Christianity itself has an even longer history of calling each other heretics and going to war over the matter.”

There’s a vast difference between calling out a group within Christianity as heretical and calling Christianity itself ignorant, apostate, deceptive and the product of hell.

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[fproy2222]

In the interest of open discussion...

50 Questions to Ask Mormons

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This dumb set of questions have been answered many times .

If you wanted to do more then bash the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, you would also post the well documented, and easy to find (for someone as studied as you) answers.

[Colofornian]

There’s a vast difference between calling out a group within Christianity as heretical and calling Christianity itself ignorant, apostate, deceptive and the product of hell.

Indeed. In most cases, there isn't even an "argument" as to who is and who isn't an apostate. An "apostate" by definition is someone who has left the faith. This is usually done by self-removal or ex-communication. In distinction, battles over "heresy" are common because they do not usually involve a "lifestyle" issue as is common in apostasy, but rather involve a point of doctrine. And usually with "heretics"...they are actually orthodox on 90 to 99% of the key core doctrinal issues.

So "heresy" is tied to vital doctrines; whereas "apostasy" is usually tied to lack of spiritual fidelity...a lack of faithfulness issue. "Heresy" is tied to lack of orthodoxy; "apostasy" is tied to orthopraxy.

The fact that Mormons have judged the outward AND inward spiritual fidelity of all non-Mormon churches and individuals shows how accusatory they are. Grig did this, too, with one of the Talmage threads he posted. LDS, by voting in Joseph Smith - History first vision account in the Pearl of Great Price -- have judged all Christian sects lock, stock and barrel as having 100% "abominable" creeds PLUS 100% being "corrupt" professorially. As I've also pointed out on previous threads, to accuse ano

[Elsie]

If you wanted to do more then bash the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, you would also post the well documented, and easy to find (for someone as studied as you) answers.

Your wish is my command!

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KJV 1 Corinthians 4:17
  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

 

KJV 1 Corinthians 11:2
   Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

 

 KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 

KJV 2 Timothy 1:13
   Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

 

KJV 2 Timothy 3:14-15
 14.  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
 15.  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

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NIV Galatians 1:6-9
 6.  I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
 7.  which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
 9.  As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

 

 

 

ANYBODY???

 

Like this fine looking fellow???

 

 

 

 

 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15
 12.  And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
 13.  For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
 15.  It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Like THESE guys??

 

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

 

 

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

 

 

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Ephesians 2:1-2

   As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,  in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

[eclecticEel]

I only read the section on resurrection: it’s definitely trying to create a controversy where there is none.

You mean like Paul did in Acts 23:6?

Proof texting at its absolute worst; pulling individual verses (or parts thereof) completely out of context and applying them to situations that are in no wise related. And no, the article does nothing close to a good job "discussing some of the states of our life after we die" - it presents one viewpoint while flagrantly misrepresenting all others.

[greyfoxx39]

There is a chapter in this book from the thread that addressess the long esoteric tradition of the Temples in early Christianity. I'm guessing it will be forthcoming soon. It addresses this topic in much detail. I know you can't wait.

Oh, YAY....tell me, when did Bain Capital buy FR?

[sevenbak]

Brownie points?

No, this is about not letting a group of nuts in Texas and the resulting discussion and bashing on FR define me or what my beliefs are. IF you don’t like reading these posts as to the actual LDS doctrines, there are plenty more offerings on FR.

The RM has made the decision, apparently for the same reason, that they too are getting sick of all the bashing and misrepresentation here, to post these on news. I’m not sure it will make a difference, but I guess time will tell.

[sevenbak]

Indeed. Thanks. Those who want to read it or care about the actual beliefs and doctrines will, those who want to continue status quo in the mob mentality, will do that. Sobeit.

[sevenbak]

50 questions, answered time and time again. Here's just one place.

http://en.fairmormon.org/50_Answers#33._How_can_worthy_Mormon_males_become_Gods_in_the_afterlife_when_God_already_said_that_before_him_no_God_was_formed.2C_nor_will_there_be_any_Gods_formed_after_him_.28Is._43:10.29.

[greyfoxx39]

The RM has made the decision, apparently for the same reason, that they too are getting sick of all the bashing and misrepresentation here, to post these on news. I’m not sure it will make a difference, but I guess time will tell.

Strange, in the FRmails I got from the RM, he didn't say the mods are "sick of the mormon bashing", nor was there mention of "misrepresentation" but rather that they were looking for a solution.

Perhaps they are sick of the the mormons "bashing the abuse button" every time something is posted that you apologists can't scrape under the rug.

It's funny that prior to this "decision by the mods" you were a hit-and-run poster who would pop in once a week because you were "so busy" with work, post one or two posts and then pop out again.

Frankly, from what I can see here, in comments from other FReepers, I would encourage you to keep up the good work. You are giving us a whole new opportunity to reach those who don't frequent the Religion Forum, and there are comparisons being made of LDS to the FLDS beliefs that are new to many.

Carry on.

[sevenbak]

Guess you missed these. Some are taking the hint.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2011926/posts?page=15#15

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2011926/posts?page=21#21

[sevenbak]

The last sentence is specifically right to the point. I quote the RM:

“The poor behavior of so many concerning the FLDS raid has resulted in this temporary situation. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.”

[greyfoxx39]

Yeah, I missed those posts. (Slapping my hands in shame) What awful persecution!

[greyfoxx39]

FMA: Persecution of the Mormon Church

"The True Church is always persecuted, and the Mormons have always been persecuted."

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     Mormon claims of persecution as evidence of truth must founder on these facts:

• Persecution, however intense, or even martyrdom, cannot prove the truth of the victims' beliefs. Every religion has its martyrs, and yet no Mormon would accept the persecution of Islamic martyrs, or the persecution of the Baha'i or the Falun Gong, as evidence that those religions are true.
• Although history shows that Mormons were persecuted, history also shows that it was not for their theology, but for their goal of establishing a Mormon theocracy wherever they settled, to the justified resentment of the non-Mormon population.
• Mormons have never suffered persecution such as was visited upon the Jews of Europe, the pagans of the fourth and fifth century Roman empire (where Christianity had recently become the official state religion), the native religions of America during the European conquest, especially by the Spanish, or any number of other persecutions where one group forcefully imposes its religion on another. At the present time, the Baha'i in present-day Iran and the Falun Gong in China have suffered much greater persecution than Mormons. Nowhere have the Mormons been forced to abandon their religion under threat of death or harm. (The Mormon abandonment of the practice of polygamy in 1890 merely "forced" them to follow their own Article of Faith stating that they believe in obeying the law.)

     Their claim of persecution generally ignores the persecutions inflicted by the Mormons themselves on their opponents. This is usually because the source of information about their "persecution" is the Mormons themselves. They make much of the Haun's Mill Massacre, but say nothing about the Mormon mob burning the town of Gallatin. They say nothing about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, where Mormons slaughtered 150 innocent and unarmed immigrants. They don't tell you how they drove David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and others from their homes under threat of death. They don't tell you about their persecution of the Godbeites in Utah.

     Mormons also seem to believe that disagreeing with them and pointing out the errors of their religion is a form of persecution. This very attitude shows that they really know nothing first-hand about being really persecuted.

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 Sorry, that is the longest article I could find.

[ansel12]

“Sorry, but this LDS theology stuff in the News/Activism section just defies logic.”

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To sale something, you have to get it before the public eye, freerepublic is a good venue for that.

[colorcountry]

Well the fLDS is MUCH more persecuted than regular LDS. So therefore THEY must be the “true” church.