Posted on 03/15/2008 10:17:55 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper
More than once during these talks I referred to Luther and what always occurred to me as his destructive influence. I pointed out that even in such an admirable book as Rohan Butler's “The Roots of National Socialism” the spiritual origins of Nazism and Luther's influence had not been given the necessary importance. Then I was asked if I would be prepared to elaborate to them—about a dozen of the very senior boys, that is—my own views on Luther and Lutheranism. I agreed—with the proviso that they would be my own views and nothing else. Admittedly, I had read more on Luther and about Luther than on most other subjects. But I wanted to make it quite clear that I would not speak to them with the voice of a great authority, but would merely give them my own interpretation. I told them, moreover, that I should try to prove how dangerous it is to accept legends; and that the picture I had of Luther and his influence was thoroughly contradictory of the customary Luther of the legend.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicapologetics.info ...
You wrote:
“Please be so kind, oh great vlad, to so me the evidence of God’s hand in this mythological fable.”
You believe God has a hand in mythological fables?
“I’ve read the standard RCC defense of this fable (one version can be found here -[....] and it appears to be nothing but conjecture based on that which is not said.”
To those who do not have the eyes to see that is often how the truth is viewed.
“Works tested, saved but suffering loss by fire refer to the judgment where at all men’s works are judged and those who do not have their names in the Lamb’s Book of Life will be cast in to the Lake of Fire for eternity.”
So say you. I have no reason to believe you. I can see no reason to believe you after dealing with you in other threads. I choose to believe what is true and those who speak the truth. I have no reason to believe you are one of those people based on past experiences of dealing with you in other threads.
“Deeds of the flesh, including suffering for sin, cannot earn God’s favor or pay for entrance to heaven.”
No one said it could. And this is the central problem. you are determined to create straw men rather than actually deal with what we believe. If a man refuses to treat with another honestly what worthwhile discussion can take place? None. Change your attitude, show evidence of it, and I’ll be glad to discuss this with you.
Common courtesy says to ping the ones you reference. Say, aren’t you the Scientologist “flaglady”?
And yet ye provide no basis for the alleged existence of purgatory.
You wrote:
“And yet ye provide no basis for the alleged existence of purgatory.”
You provided no basis to believe it would be a worthwhile endeavor to do so.
Why indict the misfeasance and nonfeasance of FDR? After all, he wasn’t Catholic...
So you are a fervent RC who cares not to defend a core belief of your church? If there is Biblical warrant that clearly supports purgatory, I will publicly admit it and begin defending it. But if there be only conjecture taken from Scripture that does not support it, please admit that it is a man-made doctrine.
You wrote:
“So you are a fervent RC who cares not to defend a core belief of your church?”
No, I am not a cola. I am a Catholic. And I see no reason to deal with you according to the false premise you create.
“If there is Biblical warrant that clearly supports purgatory, I will publicly admit it and begin defending it.”
No you won’t. I remember quite clearly when you insisted that Catholics worshiped the pope. I asked for proof of this. You never provided any. I have no reason to believe you’ve become more courageous in the meantime.
“But if there be only conjecture taken from Scripture that does not support it, please admit that it is a man-made doctrine.”
Provide convincing evidence that Catholics worship both the Virgin Mary and the pope as you once claimed and I’ll be happy to provide you with evidence. Until then I see no reason to do anything for you.
I do not believe the U.S. had the same "malevolent intent" some people assign to Pacelli for the glaring reason that the blood of 400,000 Americans was shed on foreign soil to undo much of the evil Pacelli and men like him facilitated.
While hundreds of thousands of Americans were dying in Europe and Japan, Pius XII still managed to dine well and sleep peacefully.
There are newspaper reports all over the world showing people worshiping the Pope and what they think is Mary, yet you and other RCC watchdogs deny their existence. These things are not a matter of doctrine and do not need to be defended. Purgatory is one of several doctrines of the RCC that I do not find in Scripture. If it’s there, show me.
Oh, and your presumption to know what I will or will not do IF you were to reveal the Biblical source for this doctrine is another common practice of RCC watchdogs. But presumption is a sin - moght put you in purgatory.
You wrote:
“There are newspaper reports all over the world showing people worshiping the Pope...”
Okay, post them.
“... and what they think is Mary, yet you and other RCC watchdogs deny their existence.”
I don’t deny the existence of newspapers, but I do deny the existence of that which does not exist. If these stories in newspapers about worshiping the pope existed you would be able to post them here. Can you?
“These things are not a matter of doctrine and do not need to be defended.”
What? Worshiping the pope would not be a matter of doctrine and would not need to be defended? Are you kidding?
“Purgatory is one of several doctrines of the RCC that I do not find in Scripture. If it’s there, show me.”
First show me where the pope is worshiped by Catholics. I asked for evidence of this repeatedly. I see no reason to answer your questions until you finally answer mine.
“Oh, and your presumption to know what I will or will not do IF you were to reveal the Biblical source for this doctrine is another common practice of RCC watchdogs.”
No, it’s just a matter of common sense. The simple and irrefutable fact is that anti-Catholics are notoriously predictable.
“But presumption is a sin - moght put you in purgatory.”
No, presumption of actions of anti-Catholics on the part of Catholics is not a sin. I can presume all I want about your actions based upon past experiences. What I can’t do is be presumptious about God. You’re not God - as you demonstrate again and again in every post. You apparently don’t even know what presumption is. Go figure.
“I specifically requested you to compare FDR and cabinet/Congress to the Pope. You can’t do it”
You are right; one is a democracy and the other a quasi religious dictatorship. FDR could not move unilaterally without the consent of a divided congress but the Pope could and had better intelligence since he had many feet on the ground and a ready made constituency.
This is ridiculous to even try and compare the two actions. FDR is a leader of a nation dealing with a potential security problem and not enough security personal to adequately screen those that are a potential risk. The other is a religious leader who is in theory supposed to give a loud voice for Christian beliefs and values.
The USA in the end put her greatest treasure at risk and lost 100's of thousands ending the tyranny of both the Nazi's and Japanese. It appears to me that it is the inability of the RC's to admit error in their church's behavior that now leads them to question the integrity of the USA to deflect criticism. It's time to get some perspective.
All Christian churches failed. Now maybe we learn from it, but it doesn't seem likely with the appeasement we see in the WOT.
“This is veering from the ridiculous to the absurd. Is there no argument so lame that it won’t be called to duty?”
And why is that absurd? He had a church in every city and members loyal to the church. Is that not more than FDR had?
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