Posted on 03/15/2008 10:17:55 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper
More than once during these talks I referred to Luther and what always occurred to me as his destructive influence. I pointed out that even in such an admirable book as Rohan Butler's “The Roots of National Socialism” the spiritual origins of Nazism and Luther's influence had not been given the necessary importance. Then I was asked if I would be prepared to elaborate to them—about a dozen of the very senior boys, that is—my own views on Luther and Lutheranism. I agreed—with the proviso that they would be my own views and nothing else. Admittedly, I had read more on Luther and about Luther than on most other subjects. But I wanted to make it quite clear that I would not speak to them with the voice of a great authority, but would merely give them my own interpretation. I told them, moreover, that I should try to prove how dangerous it is to accept legends; and that the picture I had of Luther and his influence was thoroughly contradictory of the customary Luther of the legend.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicapologetics.info ...
What is fascinating about the book is not the same old empty chestnuts that Pacelli actually saved Jews by not speaking out and that his hands were tied and that he really really wanted to help. Instead the book is intriguing for the portrait it paints of Pacelli and the German woman who lived with him for 50 years and, if the book is to believed, guided his every footstep, both forward and back.
But what was singular, which Friedländer does not sufficiently emphasize or analyze, is that the project was ideologically driven forward from Germany by Germans who alone sought the total elimination of the Jews from Europe and ultimately from the world. Whatever substantial local aid Germans received from Dutch, French, Poles, Ukrainians and others, it was principally Germans who imagined a world without Jews.
I would probably agree with that remark. In particular, it was Bavarian Germany. Hitler's anti-semitism may have flowered in Berlin, but it was born and raised in Munich, a very Catholic area, don't you think?
FRIEDLANDER: "If, however, the Catholic Church also represents a moral stand, as it claims, mainly in moments of major crisis, and thus has to move on such occasions from the level of institutional interests to that of moral witnessing, then of course Pius's choice should be assessed differently."
SANDY: I wonder what follows that sentence.
Why not spend a few dollars on Amazon and find out.
hey there...haven’t been on in a couple of days - stomach bug made another appearance among the kiddies...
did anyone post this catholic encyclopedia entry yet?...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
It certainly isn’t something mentioned much in the Rochester Diocese.
I’ve heard it mentioned a little bit more in other places - but it still seems like an important issue that gets overlooked.
Thanks, wm.
Uh, no, of course not (Kennedy, Pelosi, et. al.)LOL.
A case about what?
No, during the Kaiser's "culture war" they were not. What is odd, is that when the Italian masons and socialists stormed Rome, the Kaiser was one of the places that offered to evacuate the Pope. My family left before that, but for similar reasons. Those "old Lutheran's" that were left were pushed out by that time. The resulting religion was (and in many ways still is) a religion of state worship.
It was a very unsettled time. Not even our own times can compare. A tide of red and black revolutions sweeping the globe. Bomb throwers in all major countries blowing up officials, etc.
Vienna, not Munich. Hitler was an anti-Semite long before he arrived in Munich.
And his anti-Semitism was heavily involved with the occult, specifically Madame Blavatsky and her "Theosophy", as well as other aspects of occultism and neo-paganism.
Roy Schoeman does a fine job of explaining and documenting this in his book.
Gee, I wonder what all those readings are from every Sunday at Catholic mass. I think they are from the Bible. The book you think it's fine to remove several books from.
Why don't you read a Physicians Desk Reference and proclaim yourself a Doctor?
Or, do you already do that?
WOW! I’m glad to see that my Catholic German relatives who were forced into Hitler’s army were not from a region that supported him.
Good find. Thanks for posting it.
You wrote:
“Shazam. You get off on a technicality again.”
I don’t need to get off on a technicality. I’m not perfect, but I try to get it right the first time and every time after that. Try that.
You wrote:
“You seem to want me to do your reading for you. The book can be found used on Amazon for a few dollars. I suggest you get a copy.”
Why don’t you just answer the question since you claim to be fascinated by the book? Are you afraid of the answer?
Why don’t you at least tell us what it says on page 203 about Pius XII hiding thousands of Jews in the Vatican? That’s page 203. Go ahead and tell us.
“What is fascinating about the book is not the same old empty chestnuts that Pacelli actually saved Jews by not speaking out and that his hands were tied and that he really really wanted to help. Instead the book is intriguing for the portrait it paints of Pacelli and the German woman who lived with him for 50 years and, if the book is to believed, guided his every footstep, both forward and back.”
Sounds actually rather mundane to me. Please tell us about what’s on page 203.
Come to think of it what did Grand Rabbi Herzog say to Pius XII as shown on page 208? Tell us his words. You know, those words of his half way down the page in quotes. That’s page 208. Can you do that for us?
And look at page 209. What’s the number of Jews saved by Pius XII as given by these authors of this book you find so fascinating? What’s the number? It’s in the second line down if you’re having problems finding it.
Oh, and by the way, look further down the page (209). See where the authors quote Pinchas E. Lapide? You remember him right? That’s the Israeli diplomat that the anti-Catholics here scoffed at for claiming that Pius XII saved more than 800,000 Jews. What is it he says there in that third paragraph on 209?
Please be honest and tell us what the book says on pages 203, 208 and 209.
Don’t be shy now. Tell us.
You wrote:
“A case about what?”
See post #822 and work your way backward. Try real hard to remember what it was you were making a fuss over.
My German Great Grandfather fortunately had enough brains to get out of that country before WWI. It wasn't until much later that I looked in his hometown for distant relatives. I found them. They are wonderful people. There have been multiple trans Atlantic trips that followed.
I must say, that when I was a young man, I was shocked when they began to show me family documents with a swastika on them. I almost jumped out of my chair. Then, I realized just how real that era was. The family elder was forced into Hitlers army and didn't have it too bad living in a castle in France. But, then he was sent to the Russian front and was captured and enslaved. He survived and was rescued by American soldiers.
At the same time, even if the institutions and churches and assemblies failed - I'm sure God had a remnant standing in faith despite the world around them.
Maranatha, Jesus!!!
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