Posted on 03/15/2008 10:17:55 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper
More than once during these talks I referred to Luther and what always occurred to me as his destructive influence. I pointed out that even in such an admirable book as Rohan Butler's “The Roots of National Socialism” the spiritual origins of Nazism and Luther's influence had not been given the necessary importance. Then I was asked if I would be prepared to elaborate to them—about a dozen of the very senior boys, that is—my own views on Luther and Lutheranism. I agreed—with the proviso that they would be my own views and nothing else. Admittedly, I had read more on Luther and about Luther than on most other subjects. But I wanted to make it quite clear that I would not speak to them with the voice of a great authority, but would merely give them my own interpretation. I told them, moreover, that I should try to prove how dangerous it is to accept legends; and that the picture I had of Luther and his influence was thoroughly contradictory of the customary Luther of the legend.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicapologetics.info ...
Incredible. That is one sick mind.
Not exactly silence.
I heard a distinct hissing sound.
Of course one can ask: What could be worse than the extermination of 6 million Jews? The answer is simple and terribly honest: the killing of hundreds of thousands of other Jews.
What barbaric, idiotic, appeasing comments.
After six million Jews were murdered, how many do you think remained?
With this kind of logic, maybe it would have been better if NO ONE had spoken up! If Bonhoeffer had just kept his mouth shut. If the Jews had just trusted in the silence of the Vatican, everything would have worked out great peachy-keen.
Unbelievable.
You misunderstand. I didn't say you passed your sins off to the Pope, but that you passed them off on the Pope.
Clearly your sins must be the Pope's fault. Everything else bad that ever happened is.
Are you equating the slaughter of 13 million with the slaughter of 14 million? Is not every life precious?
Who are you to abandon 860,000 souls so profligately?
An entire strawman fashioned from one tiny preposition!
Now THAT is craftsmanship.
At the least 860,000.
What barbaric, idiotic, appeasing comments.
Your opinions are not very persuasive.
About 5 million. The Wannsee conference (which planned the Holocaust in January 1942) came up with an overall number of 11 million Jews they planned to exterminate.
Of course, not all 11 million were under Nazi control for the entire duration of the war.
Rabbi Dalin knows that, because he's actually a (((GASPSPUTTERGASP))) competent historian.
I answered that yours was a legalistic and meaningless argument and that if you persisted in distinguishing between the two concepts, you must further distinquish between "healed" and "atoned for" and "saved" and "acquitted" and any number of verbal concepts which tell us the same truth -- that Christ alone paid for our sins in full, and that His righteousness is imputed to us as a merciful, unmerited gift from God.
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." -- Romans 4:22-25"And therefore it was imputed to him (Abraham) for righteousness.
My lips are tired....And I want some listerine..
Goodness, I never realized that "covered" and "cleansed" were the same thing.
Why didn't you tell me this when I still had small children in the house? I could have gotten out of changing many, many dirty diapers with that bit of subtlety.
Gives you great insight to the behavior of his adherents.
You wrote:
“Other than the passive “excommunication” of Latia Sentia—by which someone’s unrepented of and unconfessed mortal sins excommunicate them in the eyes of God, when and where was Hitler ever formally excommunicated by a Roman Catholic authority?”
All Nazis were excommunicated by the German bishops in the early 1930s. That included Hitler who was number 555 (or 7 depending on source) in the Nazis.
“I daresay since the center of popular Nazism was Bavaria—and a majority of the SS were Austrian, more self-professed Roman Catholics followed him than Lutherans.”
I daresay taht since Germany was 2/3 Protestant or so, it was probably heavy on the Protestant support for Hitler.
“Of course none of this makes Roman Catholicism the source of Hitler’s evil.”
True. Nor does it make Lutheranism the source. I think Luther is unfairly said to be the father of Hitler in ideals.
“Calling Luther the source of Nazism....something very few reputable historians have ever claimed.....this kind of blatant Protestant bashing really should stop.”
Notice, I’m not doing it. I said I thought such ideas simply went too far.
Can someone say that Luther help create a modern Germany soaked in anti-semitism? Yes, he helped. And far too many Catholics were also far too involved with anti-semitism too!
Still.
AMEN!
"Let God be true, but every man a liar!" - Romans 3:4
Indeed.
Good point.
I'm unfamiliar with the organizational structure of the Lutheran Church. Is it a centralized hierarchy like the RCC?
As a Baptist we have a decentralized structure and are organized in associations. Thus any national figure really does not have any power over individual churches so you can usually find us on both sides of every issue.
I usually shy away from psycho-history, but one great book on the mind of Luther is Herbert David Rix’s Martin Luther: The Man and the Image. Sadly, the book is long out of print and used copies go for about $150 at Amazon.com.
The book is just that good. He shows how warped Luther really was.
You mean like how Bill Clinton's Southern Baptist pastor in Little Rock told him abortion was a-okay?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.