Posted on 03/09/2008 8:33:45 PM PDT by Pyro7480
"At that time Jesus said to the multitudes of the Jews: 'Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me? He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God.' The Jews therefore answered, and said to him: Do not we say well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered: 'I have not a devil: but I honour my Father, and you have dishonoured me. But I seek not my own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Amen, amen I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever.' The Jews therefore said: Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest: If any man keep my word, he shall not taste death for ever. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? and the prophets are dead. Whom dost thou make thyself? Jesus answered: 'If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God. And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I shall say that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar. But I do know him, and do keep his word. Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad.' The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said to them: 'Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.' They took up stones therefore to cast at him. But Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple."
Honestly, I don’t really remember. I never read the bible with that it mind.
Can we agree that Jesus Christ fulfilled all the law?
No he didn’t. And none of this sneaky talk of him getting a second chance to fix those things.
Here is a list of most of the conditions necessary for him to have been the messiah (complete with biblical references). Tick off the ones he completed. If any remain unfulfill, he was a false messiah.
The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
Each records three but careful examination shows that they aren’t all the same.
They're close enough.
The differences can be easily explained when one considers differences in viewpoints ... and that some of the accusations likely happened simultaneously.
Any more similarty between the accounts would suggest collusion.
Paul Said Jesus was God manifested in the flesh:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God F4 was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. (1 Timothy 3:16)
6 As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it F6 with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; (Colossians 2:6-9)
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13)
After Jesus healed a demon possessed man, Jesus said:
"Return to thine house, and show what great things God hath done unto thee. And he went on his way and published throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done unto him." (Luke 8:39)
Scripture where the words "Christ" and "God" are used interchangeably:
"For we shall all stand before the judgment Seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So, then, "every one of us shall give account of himself to God." (Romans 14:10-12)
More Scripture stating that Jesus is God:
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:-11)
God identifies Himself to Moses by calling himself "I AM." (Exodus 3:14). Twice Jesus refers to Himself as the "I AM.":
"Jesus said unto them, Verily verily, I say you, before Abraham was, I am. Then they took up stones to cast at him …" (John 8:58,59)
"Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them I am he. As soon as he said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground." (John 18:4b, 5, 6)
Jesus said, he is the Almighty Lord. The following is a vision John had of Jesus. Verses 2, 13, 17,18 identify Jesus as the:
v 2) "… testimony of Jesus Christ …"
(v 8) "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
(v 11) "Saying I am alpha and Omega, the first and the last…"
(v 13) "And in the midst of the seven lamp stands, one like the Son of man …"
(v 17b. 18a) "Fear not; I am the first and the last; I am he that liveth and was dead…"
God the Father said Jesus was God:
"Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom." (Hebrews 1:8)
Jesus (the Messiah) is called the Mighty God:
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)
Jesus is called Immanuel, which means "God with us."
"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which, being interpreted, is God with us." (Matthew 1:23)
God uses the first person (“me”) and the third person (“him”) to describe Himself as the one who will be pierced:
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for HIM, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10)
Jesus (the "Word") is God:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)
The book of Revelation says that Jesus and God are the same:
(v6) "And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true; and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."
(v 16) "I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches …"
Here are verses calling Jesus our savior:
Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)
"But hath in due time manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God, our Savior" (Titus 1:3)
"Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God, our Savior, in all things." (Titus 2:10)
"But after the kindness and love of God, our Savior, toward man appeared." (Titus 3:4)
"To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God, the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior." (Titus 1:4)
"Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior," (Titus 3:6)
Both God and Jesus created all things. Here are verses that say God created all things:
"Ah, Lord God! Behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by Thy great power and outstretched arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee: … the Great, the Mighty God, the Lord of hosts, is his name," (Jeremiah 32:17, 18)
"Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he who formed thee from the womb: I am the Lord who maketh all things; who stretcheth forth the heavens alone; who spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." (Isaiah 44:24)
"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the Heavens are the worlds of thine hand." (Hebrews 1:10)
Here are verses that say Jesus created all things:
"… Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come. …Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power; for thou has created all things, and for thy pleasure they were created." (Revelation 4:8, 11)
"All things were made by him (Jesus), and without him was not anything made that was made." (John 1:3)
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; For by him all things were created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers - all things were created by him and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Col. 1:15, 16)
"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." (Hebrews 1:2)
Both God and Jesus raised Jesus from the dead. Here are verses that say God raised Jesus from the dead:
"And to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come." (1 Thes. 1:10)
"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Romans 8:11)
Here are verses that say Jesus raised Himself from the dead:
" Jesus answered, and said unto them Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." (John 2:19)
"Therefore doeth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." (John 10:17, 18)
Since you say that they’re close enough, tell me which ones are incorrect.
Me? I say they are all correct.
But Ill never forget Beulah, a steel gray doe who was, for a Nubian, a prodigious milker and a very nice person. Felled by Caprine Arthritis-Encephalitis. Darn.
Where did that come from? Whoa...
Here is a list of most of the conditions necessary for him to have been the messiah
No, it isn't.
It also looks like you think I said that Jesus fulfilled all prophesy and that isn't what I said.
Don't know what you're trying to prove...
So much wrongly divided word there...I really don’t have time or energy tonight to go line by line, but some of those have even been discussed earlier on this thread.
“I am”...God said that he would become what he would become and that isn’t what Jesus said to the scribes and pharisees.
God and Christ are NOT interchangeable. To say they are negates the precision of Gods’ Word.
Jesus healed someone and gave credit to God. That doesn’t make Jesus God. The people saw Jesus perform the miracle that God gave Jesus the power to perform.
If Jesus is God in one place then he must be God in every place, but if Jesus is not God in one place, he is not God in any place.
God said that Jesus was his son in whom he was well pleased...why don’t you believe God Almighty?
GOD ALMIGHTY
IS THE RULE MAKER AND THE RULE KEEPER AND THE RULE ADJUSTER
AS SUITS
HIM.
HE IS EVER CREATIVE ANEW AND NEVER CHANGING.
Trying to push HIM in a tiny linear box will not work.
It has suited HIM to blind the children of Jacob to their authentic Messiah until AFTER the AntiChrist has risen to power . . .
WHEN he sets up his image in the 3rd Temple’s Holy of Holies . . .
WILL YOU
THEN have pause for some serious reflection?
Since you say that they’re close enough, tell me which ones are incorrect.
Me? I say they are all correct.
I believe that they are all correct, as well.
It really was a straight forward question. My understanding, which you did not deny, was that you agreed that Jesus was the "Anointed One" in the prophecy of the 70 7's. I then asked if so would his words be credible. Now you are saying he was not the "Anointed One".
Are you now denying that the timing of the appearance of the "Anointed One" written in Daniel chapter 9 did not coincide with Jesus's ministry? I thought you were in agreement with this, but were just denying that Jesus is the Messiah.
BTW, you still have not answered the question. If Jesus was the "Anointed One" would his words be credible?
I appreciate your honesty. I know of no example in Scripture in which a soul once it is brought into existence is completely destroyed. There are a great many knowledgeable Freepers on these threads and I believe if I was in error they would point it out.
The point of this is your assertion that God was killed when Jesus was crucified. We are made in God's image. God is Spirit. Our souls are Spirit. Our bodies will be destroyed, but our souls will live on. If we are saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ we will be blessed to be with the Lord forever. If we are not saved by Grace we will be separated from the Lord for all eternity.
Malachi 4:5-6 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Yeah, allow for a second chance and the next thing ya know, people will be expecting the return of Elijah!
That must have come from a course entitled Slight of Hand 101. It's not even internally consistent.
Remember in the movie Ben Hur, when Arius released prisoner no. 41?
You have the miracles that were performed, before and after He rose....and not a manuscript with credibility from that age exists to debunk the claims of the New Testament writers. Have you not noticed the beautiful way the New blends in and is woven into the Old Testament with such skill that no human can claim credit?
You have your own ancestors that put Christ to death, hesitantly, due to the fact that the masses were turning toward Him because He taught with authority, brought the dead to life, healed the sick, gave sight to the blind AND cast out demons.
You have all the prophesies fulfilled....and yet your main point of contention is that He can't be God because His human flesh died?? Seems pretty weak in light of every thing that went on at the time....AND NOW....
Now we have 2000 years of defining the calender year by His existence, an enduring church, ministries that bear fruit not of their own power but of miraculous turns of events. You have programs such as Teen Challenge breaking people bonds to addiction and from past turmoil (in the name of Christ) much more successfully than any other program out there....not by human deeds, but by the power of God (Jesus). Millions of lives and personalities have been transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit! You have modern day demonic possession being destroyed through the name of Christ.
All these things and more and still the Jewish people remain stiff necked. I really am not surprised. There is a history of your ancestor killing their own prophets. Turning to idols even at the foot of columns of fire and cloud.
How long do you plan on waiting for your messiah, when clearly He gave you His Son, like Abraham was asked to give His son...but you refuse to see and believe? Luckily for the Jews the New Testament does declare even your people will come to proper understanding and belief...but until that day we will still pray for you!
In Christ,
Mike
that doesn’t cut the mustard....there is only one God, not three. Jesus is stated as the son of God. THe son cannot be the father and son at the same time. Where has your commonsense gone to? Do you just believe what you have been taught?
He clearly said that he did nothing of his own power, clearly not a God. It’s a false teaching to make it easier to accept continued sinning because if he were God, clearly we could not behave without sin as he did..not true, we are to eventually be born again so that we can no longer sin. Of course we still make errors and overcome weaknesses, but sinning can be stopped altogether. The church has fallen down badly in this regard. At fhu.com there is a neat be still prayer, exercise that is biblical and helps so many people to get separate from the evil in our minds and connect to the holy spirit. Being used by the US military too.
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