Posted on 03/01/2008 6:10:08 AM PST by Terriergal
If Jesus walked the earth today, he'd drink fair-trade coffee and fill his Blackberry with non-church activities.
So says Brian McLaren, author of more than a dozen books on modern Christianity - most recently Everything Must Change: Jesus, Global Crisis, and a Revolution of Hope.
In Everything Must Change, McLaren urges an examination of four critical issues: the environment, poverty, world peace and religious understanding.
The book is titled Everything Must Change. Do you mean everything? Are we doing anything right?
The laws of gravity and the speed of light are just fine. (laughs) But what I'm saying with "everything" is everything meaning the big picture, the big system that we're working in, the big assumptions that underlie so much of what we do.
The idea of changing everything is kind of overwhelming. What's one thing that we could change today that would help a little bit?
If we look at these four crises - the planet, poverty, peace and religion - if every person were to just pick one specific thing they could do in one of those areas, I think that would be a great start. It will help us practice the deeper changes that we need. So relating to the planet, it might be to start recycling or to change your light bulbs. In relation to poverty, it might mean start buying fair trade coffee. Or it might mean when you see a homeless person on the street, actually treat him like a human being and talk to him for a few minutes.
What are your thoughts on giving money to panhandlers? Do you think that helps or hurts?
I've talked to a lot of homeless people, and one of the things they say is, "What really hurts is to be ignored and treated like furniture." ... Giving a smile might be a lot more important than giving a dollar, and giving five minutes of conversation might be a lot more important than giving $5. Often when you do that, you start discovering a lot of the homeless are mentally ill. Then that's going to affect how you vote in the next election when you realize, "Boy, we've got to do something for mentally ill people who don't have anywhere to go."
What are the most common complaints you hear about organized religion today?
One is the association of Christianity with the religious right and with a preoccupation with only two moral issues, missing many others, and with this crazy conclusion that Christianity should be pro-war, anti-poor and anti-environment. People are just saying, "That makes no sense."
To attend
Everything Must Change Tour
Brian McLaren's 11-city book tour stops today from 6 to 10:30 p.m. and Saturday from 8:30 a.m. to 5 p.m. at First Baptist Church of St. Petersburg, 1900 Gandy Blvd. Tickets: $109 or $79 for students. Details: (727) 576-5508 or www.deepshift.org.
Narrowing it down to just four things certainly makes the problems easy to deal with.
McLaren,Wallis,Obama,Hillary and their ilk.
2 Timothy 3:1-9
1You must understand this, that in the last days distressing times will come. 2For people will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, brutes, haters of good, 4treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid them! 6For among them are those who make their way into households and captivate silly women, overwhelmed by their sins and swayed by all kinds of desires, 7who are always being instructed and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these people, of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith, also oppose the truth. 9But they will not make much progress, because, as in the case of those two men,* their folly will become plain to everyone.
The religion of the environmentalist.
Save the planet?
This world is a temporary realm. We should not become too tied to the material world.
We use to. We had mental institutions where they were cared for. Then a bunch of self important busy bodies, like Brian here, decided it was "Wrong" to institutionalize these people. So in the 1960s they pushed for "more enlighted" rules against "involuntary commitment". So people who could not care for themselves, were allowed to decide if they wanted to live in institutions or not. So now, thanks to people like Brian, we let them sleep in cardboard boxes under bridges instead of caring for them in Mental Institutions.
“If we look at these four crises - the planet, poverty, peace and religion”
Leftist mole, attempting to redefine sin. Substituting communism for the gospel. Global warming is a hoax, Christians give more to the poor than any other group, go talk to the muslims about peace, and true religion comes from God’s word, not some nanny stater named Brian McClaren.
McLaren is a deceiver, just like his boss. And yes, I mean it exactly the way it sounds.
Why not? What about our responsibilities to those that are going to be born and live here before passing on to something greater?
Temporary, yes, but necessary.
Hi Terriergal!
Stealing a quote that the FIDE-O Blog posted, by Pastor Vance Havner
“There is a trend today that would put a new robe on the prodigal son while he is still feeding hogs. Some would put the ring on his finger while he still in the pigsty. Others would paint the pigsty and advocate bigger and better hog pens.”
That may be what Vance Havner said, but Christ said...
“When I come in My Glory, I’ll sit on My glorious throne and gather the nations in My presence. I will separate them to My right and to My left. To the ones on My right, I will say ‘Come and inherit the Kingdom, because I was hungry and you fed Me. I was thirsty and you gave Me a drink. I was a stranger and you invited Me into your home. I was naked and you gave Me clothing. I was sick and you cared for Me. I was in prison and you visited Me.’”
The thing is those righteous people didn’t even know they had done that for Christ...didn’t have a clue. But that’s what they did, and that’s why they gained “the Kingdom”.
Now you can have all the theories you want about the End Times and the Judgement Seat of Christ, but that scenario, from Matthew, spoken just two days before Christ was arrested, put on trial and was crucified, is what Christ Himself said was going to happen.
Dice it, dissect it, parse it, rationalize it, interpret it...whatever. But that is what Christ said.
As great a man as Havner was, unfortunately, those are simply his words and his dismissive take...there isn’t much Scripture to back it up, and less so from the actions of Chirst Himself.
Amen! Look to Galatians. Paul and the rest of the Apostles examined Paul’s doctrine, and they agreed that Paul was indeed teaching truth and:
Galatians 2:10They only asked us to remember the poor— the very thing I also was eager to do.
But what is the Great Commission? Does Jesus tell the Apostles to go out and feed the poor, or make disciples of all nations? Does Jesus not say that the poor will always be with us? The rebirth ensures that those that are born again will have compassion on those in need, for we love our brother as ourselves. But which is more important, filling an empty belly or the salvation of souls?
This is the trap that many fall into in the more liberal churches, that the work for the poor is more important than the spread of the Gospel. The Gospel is the basis for Christianity, not charity; though it is important.
McLaren however is a false teacher.
I don’t know if McLaren is or is not a false teacher. It would be nice to have that kind of confidence in my mortal judgement. Further, I do not know that much about him.
However, as important as it is to “preach the gospel” and to save souls, the Bible, Old and New Testament (God is very firm in what His followers were to do relative to strangers, the poor, the disenfranchised) is clear in our duties.
Now, I ask, which is more effective, preaching hellfire, repentance and salvation to a hungry man, or feeding him, loving him and then introducing him to the Source of that love? That’s why missionaries of the past established schools, hospitals, clinics and other means of reaching out to others, and then followed up with caring for souls. They certainly didn’t go into the former Belgian Congo or Swaziland or New Guinea thundering out damnation. If they had done that in New Guinea they would have ended up as an entree.
The sense I get is that we Christians would certainly like to feed the poor, but by gum, if they don’t accept Christ pretty quick, we’re on to someone else.
My problem, here, is all the disparaging of the “emergent church” and its emphasis on social needs. As I mentioned above, that is a major Biblical theme, and always has been, until watered down by aggessive fundamentalism, as a response to modernism.
Should Christ take on the form of a human once again (unlikely, and purely hypothetical), I think He would get the same response from the same “Biblically” oriented people.
We do know that the passage in Matthew has been depicted many times as Jesus among us, in disguise. Mother Teresa said once, paraphrasing...”We think about Jesus, and then go out to find Him.”
I understand that it is best to withhold judgement on others until you hear them out. And I have and then I heard him. You can listen to it for yourself here.
>However, as important as it is to “preach the gospel” and to save souls, the Bible, Old and New Testament (God is very firm in what His followers were to do relative to strangers, the poor, the disenfranchised) is clear in our duties. etc...
Unfortunately you are putting the cart before the horse. Romans 10:17 tells us that faith comes from the word of Christ (or God, depending on translation...). In Acts do Paul and Peter start their ministry by feeding the poor? I would think that their ministries are good ground to base outreach on.
>Should Christ take on the form of a human once again (unlikely, and purely hypothetical), I think He would get the same response from the same “Biblically” oriented people.
Would you classify yourself as a 'Biblically' oriented person? The scriptures are pretty clear that Christ Himself is still in a physically resurrected body and is now sitting on the right hand of the Father. But that is assuming you take the scriptures at their word.
>We do know that the passage in Matthew has been depicted many times as Jesus among us, in disguise. Mother Teresa said once, paraphrasing...”We think about Jesus, and then go out to find Him.”
I know this will make you angry, but I don't think that someone that had hindu idols in her hovel and prayed to them is the best representative of what we should be as Christians. Mother Theresa was a person that performed works, and showed her love for her fellow man, but again, so can the Muslim, Buddhist et al.
It is just that that is not a way to the Father. Only through the atoning sacrifice of the Christ, through faith in Him, born again in the Spirit can one reach the Father. Through faith alone, and not through works is one justified.
I remember being out west and a panhandler came up to me. He said he had lost his job and needed money for some food. I told him I would be happy to take him into the restaurant we were standing across from and buy him a meal. Afterward, I told him, I knew of some Christian organizations close by that would help him find a job. He quickly left.
Riding the subway I see a lot of this going on. People lying to strangers that they need 50 cents to pay for their fare. Once someone gives it to them, they go to the next sap and ask for another 50 cents and another and another.
Another anecdotal story was a Captain friend of mine received a call one day. It seems a friend of his had been panhandling in Manhattan. Over the years he had made a pretty good living of around $110,000 per year tax free. He lived in a nice apartment with nice furnishings. Two days prior to my friend's call, this panhandler received a call from the IRS. They had did an audit of the area by addresses and wanted him to come down and explain to them how he could afford to live in such a nice apartment with no income. In a panic he called my friend who said that he really only had two choices; come clean with the IRS or flee to Canada.
People like Brian McLaren are naive at the least. Christians are suppose to use their tithes and offerings for furthering the gospel. That may include taking care of the poor. But we are also suppose to be wise stewards. Paul said, "If a man does not work, let him not eat."
Interesting comment from McLaren...I respond to you from Micah 7:19 "You cannot stay angry...forever...You delight in showing mercy."
I would be interested in your interpretation of "You delight in showing mercy?
You say Romans 10:17 tells us faith cometh from the Word of Christ. No problem with that. But have you ever sat down and listed, point by point, the list of things Paul says you should do in chapters 12 through 14?
Let me give you a few examples. 12:3 "Be honest in your estimate of yourself. 12:9 "Don't pretend to love others, really love them. 12:20 "Feed your hungry enemies "Give your thirsty enemies something to drink." (It seems God thinks food and water are really important.)
Then write down what Paul says is important in Chapter 14, because it really says a lot about our discussion. But you have the point, I'm sure.
You ask "in Acts, do Paul and Peter start their ministry by feeding the poor?" Let's take Peter first. Peter started "his ministry" with the miracle of the arrival of the Holy Spirit, certainly an unprecedented event. Then the disciples went out and performed "many miraculous signs and wonders". After that, it's recorded that Peter and John went to the Temple and healed a lame man who had been begging at the Temple gate every day. So I guess the answer to your question is...Yeah!, and if not feeding the poor, how about "good works?"
The preceding should indicate that I am, indeed, a Biblically oriented person. But should you have missed it, I ask the question, should Christ (hypothetically) return to earth in human form, what would we do. I made clear it was impossible, but certainly intriguing, from my point of view. I don't think those who call themselves Christians today, especially fundamentalists, would recognize Him. Just my opinion.
Relative to Mother Teresa, she is not the question. The question is would we recognize Jesus as He portrays Himself in Matthew 25 ("when you did it to one of the least of these, my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me" and "when you refused to help the least of these, my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me." If you read Matthew 25 and take it to heart, and I mean read the thing with your spiritual eyes open, it will shake you to your foundations! This is Christ talking about my, your, final destiny. It comes from the mouth of Jesus Christ...no one else. It bears consideration.
Finally, I have not one argument with your final paragraph. It is only through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ that I am, simply, a sinner saved by grace, and by grace alone...striving to meet the Master's goals, miserably falling short.
No offense should be taken.
Who the heck is he?
What happened to repenting for one's OWN sins?
Where did you hear that Mother Theresa prayed to Hindu idols? IAC, she never preached the social gospel, which many Christians have substitued for traditional Christian teachings. She simply lived with and took care of the poor. Furthermore, she “multipled the loaves,” so to speak by founding an order of nuns who continue to do her work.
There are some questionable references to Hindu idols in quotes from Mother Teresa. But your comment that she simply took care of the poor is well documented. More importantly, she did it in the Name of Christ. Her sacrifices, in my opinion, are worth the preachings of any fundamentalist preacher or evangelist of our day.
The fact, recently disclosed, that she had great struggles with her faith, and still endured, is almost Pauline in it’s scope. Her comments about Christ are exquisite. While I am not a Catholic, I could only wish that more of my fellow Evangelicals had that level of commitment to Him.
To those who would disparage Mother Teresa...can you give me an example of any contemporary evangelical who exemplified a Christlike spirit more than she?
I made the comment that Mother Teresa had made the statement that they (the group of nuns in India) would meditate on Christ, then go out and try to find Him in the streets of Calcutta. That is the spirit of Matthew 25.
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