Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
Can you expand on this further? I rather think that Jesus worked and worked on Peter, treating him as the leader, speaking to him first, letting Peter reply for the others, and finally giving him the Keys to the Kingdom and telling him feed His sheep.
I was simply referring to this:
Matt 18:12-14 : 12 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
Peter showed faith when he correctly identified Jesus. Then he made some mistakes, but God went out and brought him back.
Peter was put into a position of leadership and when he grew into the role, finally, a position of authority, as seen in Acts.
While we certainly disagree about his authority, it is true that Peter, the rest of the Apostles, and indeed all Christians always continue to grow in the faith all during their Christian lives.
No, FK, the Reformed version of this reads: And if they do not God doesn't want them to persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Two different ways of saying the same thing.
(1) First, Paul here is saying (in the original) that they persist in unbelief. The Reformed read it as "God wants them to be in unbelief." Clearly, Paul is not preaching Reformed theology (God forbid!).
"Persist" is in the eye of the beholder. Is falling away for a month persisting? How about a year? What difference does it make? The Biblical teaching is that the children of God will not be allowed to fall away permanently. I don't see any problem with Paul's teaching here.
Obviously, Paul is saying that it is possible to be "in" and fall away.
That IS possible, but just not permanently.
You don't have to "dance" around FK, because you know you are hinting at me, and what I said is that the Flood never happened (not for the reasons given in the Bible).
I know, I just didn't want to appear to be pitting two current allied posters against each other. I mean, I would never do that. :)
It never happened because God doesn't regret anything. And Gen 6:6 clearly states that God regretted having made man (because of man's wickedness).
Well, if you throw out everything that follows from your interpretation of a single verse, then I can't imagine there being much of anything left of the Bible for you. How did you determine that your interpretation of Gen. 6:6 is the correct one? I mean, you chose one of disunity, one that corrupts many other scriptures in your mind. I assume you must interpret at least some verses to be in unity with others, and I was just wondering how you decide when to make the breaks you do.
Does everything just collapse into the red letters in the Gospels, for example? But that can't be because you have to throw out Jesus' own words as well. Jesus accepted the Flood as fact:
Luke 17:26-27 : 26 "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
Jesus Himself says that the flood, obviously from God since Jesus did not say anything against what scripture taught, came and destroyed them all. Jesus agrees that God kills, yet you do not.
The myth, like all myths, has a message behind it: the wicked will be punished and the few good ones will be spared. Fear is not uncommonly used in all religions to bring people into compliance with religious rules.
How ironic for an Apostolic to say that to a Reformer. :)
The is also true of Exodus. Historical evidence fails to show Exodus ever happened; in fact, all evidence seems to show it didn't! There is no evidence whatsoever that that the Jews ever lived in Egypt for 450 years prior to that, or that one million of them lived in Sinai afterwards for 40 years. In fact, all evidence shows that they never left Canaan.
If you deny all these things for lack of physical evidence to your satisfaction, then what is your physical evidence for Jesus and what He did? You're a Christian so you believe it, but where is your physical evidence?
But, Exodus is an important part of the Israeli folklore and is an essential part of Judaism and, by extension, Christianity, as religions. But I submit that ti is fundamentally in opposition to Christian mindset because Christian God doesn't kill. God is the source of life and not of death. There is simply no Christ in Exodus, or in the Flood for that matter.
Well, if the Church doesn't even teach this narrow view of God, and Jesus didn't support it, then may I ask where it came from?
Not really. Judas wondered off and was bought for 30 pieces and was never "found" and brought back. Of course, you will tell me that Judas was just the unlucky "choice" of a mean and cruel God.
When it comes to God, I never think luck has anything to do with it. I don't know what God's reasons are, but He has them because He is not a random God. The answer to this is that Judas was never a sheep. He was a pretender. We have reasonable evidence that he did not persevere to/in the end, which means he was never a believer, and that God did not fail him. The argument has been made around here (I don't remember by whom) that none of the Apostles were true believers until Pentecost. While I'm not sure of that, if it is true, then Judas is certainly left out.
IT””On the contrary””- offering scriptures that have nothing to do with consent to sin.
Sin has no attachment to God. It is not consent since consent would have come from asking .
Do you ask God to sin?
You're confusing consent with free will,Dear Brother
Yeah, in fact this town is so Catholic that I always smile when there's a snowstorm. When I watch the school closings scroll across the screen, half of them start with "Our Lady...". :) I went to a Jesuit law school right here in town.
I'm actually a big admirer of Archbishop Burke. He got my thumbs-up when he went after John Kerry, almost right after his installation in '04, and told him not to bother with seeking communion anywhere around him. I think he did the same thing with Guiliani. I give him a lot of credit for that. At least HE'S being consistent with the faith as given.
FK-””OK, all things go back to God. I suppose I’m not seeing the underlying point and what this article has to do with God ordaining that evil happens.””
Only good things go back to God.
All good things go back to God,FK,which is always the first cause in all His creatures.
Evil is secondary and disrupts the goodness intended and ALWAYS willed by God which was freely given by God out of love. Thus,evil does not go back to God,it separates man from God.
God does not will secondary evil causes,they are caused by the will of man
___________________________________________________________
I can hear all of the hoots an howls now...
2 Ne. 2: 11, 15
11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.
17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.
20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.
28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;
29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.
30 I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.
The Crucifixion was the only time that God gave man the power to do anything to Him and man CHOOSE to Crucify Him.
REALLY??? What about the scourging, the crown of thorns, the spitting, the name calling, the false trial, etc. etc.? I have studied what Roman scourging really was and taught an adult Sunday School class on it one time. It was alternatively used by Romans as its own method of execution, but was frequently used as a precursor to crucifixion. They had a physician on site to determine how much was "too much" in order to keep the victim alive to be later crucified. What you saw in the "Passion of the Christ" was the real deal. That was not overblown at all. There were many many sins committed against Christ during this time and they were ALL ordained by God.
When I said Crucifixion ,I meant everything associated with it as you stated above.Sorry for being unclear.
I have no idea how you're attaching the idea of the Passion being overblown?
If not, I don't get your point ,Dear Friend
Then the universe is governed by either the Fates, or random chance. What other explanation is available for all the sin in the Bible that HAD to happen for prophecy to be filled? God's foreknowledge is no answer, since by definition that would already include God's involvement, so that is a non-starter. God can't "peek ahead" and THEN make de novo decisions, like when the time was right to send Jesus to earth, IF God is already an active participant in the world, AT THAT TIME. If you don't allow God to be in control, then you are only left with some other being, being in control (Fates), or the random chance actions of men. Take your pick.
No,FK. God sees everything as one NOW.
There is a reason for penance and reparation,fk.
God created us free and wants the natural order of goodness in man and the universe restored.
This is going to happen completely when God is fed up with our sin at some point anyway;)
It is sin that disrupts the natural order(not random choice) and you believe in a God who planned sin and everything. Thus attaching God to sin and having a God who disrupts His own plan using rag dolls(per Kosta) to accomplish that plan.
Why? for amusement?
OK, no problem.
I have no idea how you're attaching the idea of the Passion being overblown?
I remember when the movie came out there were some critics who said that the scourging scene was exaggerated for movie (blood and guts) reasons. Based on what I thought at the time I posted I wanted to make sure you weren't one of them. :) IOW, the suffering Jesus went through at the scourging was not altogether different from the actual crucifixion itself. In both cases it was indescribable torture.
***Rom 11:23 : And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.***
If they do persist in unbelief, then they will not be grafted in again. Therefore it is possible to lose one’s grafting and not get it back.
***I AM familiar with where it says that Christ will not lose a single sheep the Father has given Him.***
It makes you think, doesn’t it, when you connect it with the verses that say that Jesus came to save all men.
***Only those in the rich soil are true believers, only they have been given saving grace.***
But I thought that the Reformed teach that only true believers can be happy with the Word of God. If there are those who are happy with the Word of God for a time, then they must be true believers who fall away.
***Exhortations are tools God uses to KEEP His promise that they WILL persevere. It puts listeners, including us, in the right mindset. It’s all connected. Holy Spirit guides us to reckon the exhortations in scripture.***
With all due respect, sir, this is rather weak. If you have the Holy Spirit indwelling and guiding you, why would you need the exhortations of men?
***No, there are many pastors, priests, and Bishops of all faiths who never had true faith in the first place. There is nothing magic about a vocation that guarantees true faith. Falling away permanently is strong evidence that there was no faith originally, or else Christ is a liar.***
1 Cor 9:
25
Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.
26
Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing.
27
No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
Paul is saying here that if he falters, he might not attain salvation. No problem with Christ’s message, or Paul’s.
***Are you saying that the elect will suffer here on Earth to one degree or another, but you cannot tell if it is God’s doing or not?
Sometimes, yes. A hardship can be a discipline from God, or it could be God allowing satan to act for other reasons. Sometimes it is reasonably easy to tell the difference, but sometimes not.***
I don’t see it. Do you have examples?
***Mark quoting: Matt 10:22 You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.
This means that it is possible to fall away. Notice the sentence structure - the condition is enduring to the end, and the result is salvation. The Reformed reverse cause and effect and say that the salvation comes first and the result is endurance to the end.
It doesn’t mean that, it is simply a true statement. By your reading Jesus sent out the twelve all alone: “Go at it and do your best, maybe I will see you in Heaven depending on how well you do”. Jesus doesn’t do that. The message of Christ is that He will ALWAYS be with them, even to the very end of the age. If anything, the Apostolic reading here is a criticism of Jesus.***
Hardly a criticism. Understanding. The verse says that those who remain until the end will be saved. Cause and effect. If 1) endure, then 2) saved. Not vice versa.
***Peter showed faith when he correctly identified Jesus. Then he made some mistakes, but God went out and brought him back.***
Reflect upon the progression that Peter made. Look at his life with Jesus. Jesus trained him, even as a manager trains a subordinate, and over time, gave him authority. I understand the parable. It is about God’s love for all of us. But the life of Peter during his Apostleship as written in the Bible is plain.
Who spoke at Pentecost? Who directed the rest of the Apostles, and to whom did Paul come?
***I went to a Jesuit law school right here in town.***
SLU?
***He got my thumbs-up when he went after John Kerry, almost right after his installation in ‘04, and told him not to bother with seeking communion anywhere around him. I think he did the same thing with Guiliani. I give him a lot of credit for that. At least HE’S being consistent with the faith as given.***
He’s a good example. The group that were ordained in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s tended to wander away from the Church authority and over into liberation theology and similar nonsense. Fr. Pfleger is an example of those that, as they leave (one way or another) are being replaced by spiritual and religious Catholics.
Do your verses say that God created evil?
***It is sin that disrupts the natural order(not random choice) and you believe in a God who planned sin and everything. Thus attaching God to sin and having a God who disrupts His own plan using rag dolls(per Kosta) to accomplish that plan.
Why? for amusement?***
The Westminster Confession of Faith uses the term “pleasure” to indicate what God likes, wants, and wills to happen.
Chapter II:
He has made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things; and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleases.
To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them.
The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.
..........
And so on. The Reformed God described in the WCF has created us for His own cruel amusement and sadistic pleasure, much like a small boy pulls the wings and legs off flies or burns ants under a magnifying glass.
It doesn't say whether it is possible or not, it just makes a true statement. We have this verse apparently conflicting with a promise by Jesus Himself. Which should be interpreted to agree with the other? I know my answer, and it doesn't make Paul wrong.
FK: ***I AM familiar with where it says that Christ will not lose a single sheep the Father has given Him.***
It makes you think, doesn’t it, when you connect it with the verses that say that Jesus came to save all men.
Well, I certainly can't scream bloody murder at someone who wants to say that "all men" means all men. :) That is perfectly reasonable. I just find it unlikely, however, since we know that doesn't happen and the result would be making Jesus a colossal failure. I just can't picture that. :)
But I thought that the Reformed teach that only true believers can be happy with the Word of God.
I've never heard of that, but it only makes sense that if there is such a thing as false belief there must also be false happiness. Whoever is saying what you said must be talking about a true happiness coming from a Godly happiness. Surely sin, for example, can result in temporary false happiness.
With all due respect, sir, this is rather weak. If you have the Holy Spirit indwelling and guiding you, why would you need the exhortations of men?
It is ONE method of communication. Holy Spirit COULD handle it all by Himself, but God chose to also communicate with us through the scriptures. The scriptures are also an excellent witnessing tool to those who do not yet have Holy Spirit.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.