Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Not really. Judas wondered off and was bought for 30 pieces and was never "found" and brought back. Of course, you will tell me that Judas was just the unlucky "choice" of a mean and cruel God.
Actually, Kosta, if you had any idea what it takes to be a Presbyterian pastor, you would refrain from making comments like,”the Protestants would never admit that their pastors are simply acting as priests, or that one just can’t read the Bible and understand.” Pastors in the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America) have to read, write, and understand Greek and Hebrew before they are ordained. That is why I will never become one. (It’s all Greek to me :>)
I never wanted to suggest that Protestant ministers (especially those in mainline Protestant groups) are well read, highly educated individuals. I was simply saying that Protestants on the one hand promote the "perspicuous" Bible myth and on the other use priest-substitues to lead the flock. In other words, officially the Portestants are against priesthood but their pastors act as priests.
One is all you need. If the Bibles say different things they are not pristine. This is not much of a problem in the Church itself, but among Protestant communities where private interpretation of the Bible is enocuraged and even expected, since the Bible is "perspicuous."
If one faulty verison reaches milions of people, the consequences and their scale becomes obvious.
***Actually, Kosta, if you had any idea what it takes to be a Presbyterian pastor, you would refrain from making comments like,”the Protestants would never admit that their pastors are simply acting as priests, or that one just can’t read the Bible and understand.” Pastors in the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America) have to read, write, and understand Greek and Hebrew before they are ordained. ***
Are you saying that Catholic priests can not read, write and understand Greek and Hebrew? Huh?
***That is why I will never become one. (It’s all Greek to me :>)***
Our current pastor is a retired business executive who, after his wife died, became ordained. He just celebrated three years in the clergy (he’s 73). My wife suggested that I do the same (if in the same circumstances, I think), but she just doesn’t want me out chasing wimmin if she kicks off first.
It's not that simple,fk.
[From: "Did Christ Have to Suffer? Or Could Man Have Been Saved Another Way?"] Again, as Jesus walked with two of his disciples on the road to Emmaus, on the evening of the day he had risen from the dead, he rebuked the men for their lack of faith: “O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” (Luke 24:25–26, emphasis added).
While God could have ordained whatever He wanted, He chose to ordain the Passion and put it into prophecy. That also ordained the evil that went with it.
Given these conditions, Aquinas concluded, it was correct for Christ to say that he must suffer, that it was necessary, because at that point the matter was already settled: What the Father ordained could not be avoided, and what he foreknew could not be mistaken. As our Lord put it at the Last Supper, “The hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table. For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined” (Luke 22:21–22, emphasis added).
Given the conditions that God arranged, that is. I hope this article isn't arguing that God had to sit around and wait for man to decide when just the right people would have just the right amount of evil before He could appear on earth. If it was determined by men and by luck, then it might never have happened. There is no such thing as luck.
This is not to say, of course, that Christ was somehow forced into such a terrible fate.
That's right. God in His sovereignty ordained that it was going to go down this way, and then He ordained the details so that there would be a perfect execution (no pun intended) of the plan.
Finally, both Augustine and Aquinas concluded that God ordained the Passion of Christ “because it redounded to humanity’s greater dignity” (ST 3:46:4). Of course, to simply have God become man in the Incarnation was an honor beyond all telling. But in Christ’s suffering, our race was granted more honor still.
All the more reason why God would not leave this to chance. He ordained everything necessary. Overall, the article wasn't so bad. That is, unless it was trying to say that either the Fates or luck determined when and how Christ was going to give us this magnificent gift.
[From: "Problems of the First Cause"] We solve it: God can cause change by willing it, but His acts of will, since He is unchanging, are always there, they are eternal. He is identified with His acts of will. So the First Cause is an Efficient Cause.
OK, but I hope they are not saying that God does not change things on earth because He is static. I'm not sure in what sense the author is talking about "change".
All other things do not have to exist - their potency for existence might not be filled. It is filled only if the First Cause fills it or actualizes it. So there is only one Being that has to exist, i.e., whose existence is necessary, for without it nothing else would exist, would rise from potential to actual existence.
OK, all things go back to God. I suppose I'm not seeing the underlying point and what this article has to do with God ordaining that evil happens.
Umm, I don't think they have any Catholic Churches here in St. Louis. :)
202, but who’s counting? :0
Say hi to Archbishop Burke for me, would ya?
***I was simply saying that Protestants on the one hand promote the “perspicuous” Bible myth and on the other use priest-substitues to lead the flock.***
Some parts of the Bible ARE easy to understand, and when a difficulty presents itself, I go to someone who is more learned than I am. Just as you do. Just as everybody does. There is no “myth” about it, but a desire to understand. I read my Bible to know God better, and when I come upon something I don’t understand, I go to someone with more wisdom.
But they also refer to those who were given true faith and yet fall away forever.
I'm not familiar with where it says that anywhere in scripture. I AM familiar with where it says that Christ will not lose a single sheep the Father has given Him.
[Re: Luke 8:11-15] You keep talking about true believers. Verse 13 is about true believers who fall away forever.
No it isn't, since there is no root. From Barnes' Notes:
[With joy receiveth it] They are under deep distress for sin; they are apprehensive of danger; they hear the offer of mercy, and they seem to themselves to embrace the gospel. It offers them peace, pardon, salvation, and religion assumes for a time a lovely aspect. They IMAGINE that they are pardoned, and they have a temporary peace and joy. Their anxieties subside. Their fears are gone. They are for a time happy. "The mere subsiding of anxious feeling from any cause will make the mind for a time happy." They have only to imagine, therefore, that their sins are forgiven, to produce a certain kind of peace and joy. But there is no ground of permanent joy, as there is in true pardon, and soon their joy subsides, and all evidence of piety disappears. There is no strength of PRINCIPLE to resist temptation; there is no real love of the Saviour; and in times of trial and persecution they show that they have no true religion, and fall away.
Only those in the rich soil are true believers, only they have been given saving grace.
[Re: Acts 14:22] If the disciples were truly Reformed elect and therefore going to Heaven, it would not be necessary to exhort them to persevere since the Reformed Holy Spirit would provide all the guidance necessary.
Exhortations are tools God uses to KEEP His promise that they WILL persevere. It puts listeners, including us, in the right mindset. It's all connected. Holy Spirit guides us to reckon the exhortations in scripture.
Kosta-””One is all you need. If the Bibles say different things they are not pristine. This is not much of a problem in the Church itself, but among Protestant communities where private interpretation of the Bible is enocuraged and even expected, since the Bible is “perspicuous.”
If one faulty verison reaches milions of people, the consequences and their scale becomes obvious.””
It already has,there are many faulty versions, and growing
These are a bit old from my days working on the dangers of the New Age Movement. I’m sure it has continued,especially when you have Harper Collins involved in the purchasing of Zondervan
The battle for the Bible
http://www.worldmag.com/articles/424
Changing God’s words
http://www.worldmag.com/articles/10357
Rewritten Bible banishes saints
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/15/nbible15.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/03/15/ixhome.html
Publisher plans gender-neutral version of Bible
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/01/28/new-bible.htm
‘Largest’ Christian Publisher Zondervan, is a Division of HarperCollins, which Publishes the Satanic Bible
http://truthinheart.com/Zondervan.htm
One can only imagine what these Bible’s will look like 20 or 50 years from know.
Solo Scripture is not doing so well because it was never meant to be the sole source of Christianity in the first place.
When some says Bible only ,you will need to say which version.
The Crucifixion was the only time that God gave man the power to do anything to Him and man CHOOSE to Crucify Him.
I think we can rightly say that Our Lord was never sick with any illness while He walked the earth. This is because He ONLY gave us one chance to do anything to Him.
His suffering was out of Love ,FK ,it was not out of evil.
He completely emptied Himself for us in extreme humility to show us that humility crushes evil and love is stronger than death
You're beginning to concern me!
Only good things go back to God.
All good things go back to God,FK,which is always the first cause in all His creatures.
Evil is secondary and disrupts the goodness intended and ALWAYS willed by God which was freely given by God out of love. Thus,evil does not go back to God,it separates man from God.
God does not will secondary evil causes,they are caused by the will of man
***The Crucifixion was the only time that God gave man the power to do anything to Him and man CHOOSE to Crucify Him.***
Dear Saint, do you think man was able to do this without the express consent of God the Father? Do you think man can do anything without the express consent of God?
IT-”Dear Saint, do you think man was able to do this without the express consent of God the Father? Do you think man can do anything without the express consent of God?”
Man can freely separate himself from God to sin .
God does not give man consent to sin
***Man can freely separate himself from God to sin .
God does not give man consent to sin***
On the contrary, Romans 1 says,” 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
See, God gave them up, he allowed them to sin, he did not keep them from sinning. Man cannot separate himself from God, because God separated himself from man with Adam. It was all God’s action, God’s choosing. Man cannot spite God, befuddle God, confuse God, confound God, or act independantly from God. Man cannot surprise God. God will never say, “Golly, how did you get up here?”
No, there are many pastors, priests, and Bishops of all faiths who never had true faith in the first place. There is nothing magic about a vocation that guarantees true faith. Falling away permanently is strong evidence that there was no faith originally, or else Christ is a liar.
Are you saying that the elect will suffer here on Earth to one degree or another, but you cannot tell if it is God’s doing or not?
Sometimes, yes. A hardship can be a discipline from God, or it could be God allowing satan to act for other reasons. Sometimes it is reasonably easy to tell the difference, but sometimes not.
I also thought that the Reformed believe that there are different levels or places in Heaven to which the elect are directed but I’m not that clear on this either.
I know there are different rewards in Heaven that are judged based on the things we do down here, but I don't think I'm familiar with different "levels" in Heaven. Martyrs are apparently set apart somehow, but I don't know the particulars of how that works.
FK: ***I don’t understand what you’re saying. We have always maintained that perseverance is part of salvation.***
A mechanical part only. It doesn’t mean anything, it seems more like an autonomic function like growing hair.
God doesn't take chances with those He loves. I am the same way with my children.
Mark quoting: Matt 10:22 You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.
This means that it is possible to fall away. Notice the sentence structure - the condition is enduring to the end, and the result is salvation. The Reformed reverse cause and effect and say that the salvation comes first and the result is endurance to the end.
It doesn't mean that, it is simply a true statement. By your reading Jesus sent out the twelve all alone: "Go at it and do your best, maybe I will see you in Heaven depending on how well you do". Jesus doesn't do that. The message of Christ is that He will ALWAYS be with them, even to the very end of the age. If anything, the Apostolic reading here is a criticism of Jesus.
Why bother? Or did you not get to that part where the Bible says the Holy Spirit will teach you everything you need to know (cf John 14:26)?
Excellent dear brother! Basic Christianity.
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