Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
Excellent analysis.
The thing is that we are to utilize the whole of Scripture and not just snippets unrelated here and there.
I still think that Peter is giving the Jews notice that the Apostles are going to branch out.
It's called the sin of PRESUMTION that leads one to believe that God ordains their sin and has secured heaven.
The cause of PRESUMPTION is pride that leads one to think God will not punish or exclude them from heaven.
This leads to man thinking he does not have to give up his sinful life and there is no need for mortification and penance
This is exactly what the devil wants you to think!
Notice the emphasis on doing the will. It's what we do, our deeds, that determine it. Oh, no! Works-based salvation in the New testament!!!
Our deeds determine our salvation??? Then what was Christ for? Just a good example? A token? A reminder? A nudge?
Christians need to read the Bible in totality, because Scripture is the only infallible interpreter of Scripture.
"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." -- Acts 17:11
By reading Scripture we learn as comprehensively as possible about God's will and why we live and how we become righteous...
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Phil. 2:13
Men's ability to live righteously comes from God. I realize you've dismissed Paul's writings as gnostic, but Paul is only repeating Christ's teaching...
"Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." -- John 6:65
All men who have been given true faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour will be saved. We have Christ's word on that fact. I believe Christ.
So did Paul.
Good works are the result of a true faith; not a requirement for it or else God would be indebted to men. And that's not how it works.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." -- Romans 4:2-5"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
We are saved by grace through faith in Christ. And that's not of our own doing. It's a gift from God (Eph. 2.)
Reading my mind again?
I believe Christ. I believe Christ when He says He will lose none whom the Father has given Him, and that all who believe in Him as Lord and Savior will be saved.
It's too bad Trent teaches you otherwise. You're missing a great blessing from God to His family.
"Mortification" and "penance" come after we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit who then enables us to cast off the old man and to understand the spiritual things of God. On our own we can do thing to please God. "For whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Romans 14:23)
When God turns a man's eyes from himself to Christ alone, that man will live a righteous life by the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is what sanctification means.
We are justified once by Christ on the cross paying for our sins in full; we are sanctified every day of our lives by the Holy Spirit until we behold God's face.
No, it means I’m tired of going round and round with someone who apparently doesn’t approve of sola scripture.
The work that saves us is the work of believing on Christ, the faith to do being a gift from God:
John 6:29: “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
Ephesians 2:8 & 9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Amen!
And aren't our lives the better for being given this understanding?
"The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD." -- Proverbs 16:33
Grace and not debt.
Grace alone.
God determined every day of Christ's life, most especially including the fact that He be the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
And thus we have more Biblical evidence of election. The Lamb wasn't slain for everyone because all men are not saved. The Lamb wasn't slain for no one or else why was He born?
The Lamb was slain for His flock (John 17), named by God from before the foundation of the world by His "determinate counsel and foreknowledge."
God ordains everything that transpires, and thus nothing is beyond His perfect knowledge of His own creation.
Here's Calvin's take from the Commentaries...
The same knowledge of God's providence is a step to consider the end and fruit of Christ's death. For this meeteth us by and by in the counsel of God, that the just was delivered for our sins, and that his blood was the price of our death. And here is a notable place touching the providence of God, that we may know that as well our life as our death is governed by it. Luke intreateth, indeed, of Christ; but in his person we have a mirror, which doth represent unto us the providence of God, which doth stretch itself throughout the whole world; yet doth it specially shine unto us who are the members of Christ. Luke setteth down two things in this place, the foreknowledge and the decree of God. And although the foreknowledge of God is former in order, (because God doth first see what he will determine, before he doth indeed determine the same,) yet doth he put the same after the counsel and decree of God, to the end we may know that God would nothing, neither appointed anything, save that which he had long before directed to his [its] end. For men do oftentimes rashly decree many things, because they decree them suddenly. Therefore, to the end Peter may teach that the counsel of God is not without reason, he coupleth also therewithal his foreknowledge. Now, we must distinguish these two, and so much the more diligently, because many are deceived in this point. For passing over the counsel of God, wherewith he doth (guide and) govern the whole world, they catch at his bare foreknowledge. Thence cometh that common distinction, that although God doth foresee all things, yet doth he lay no necessity upon his creatures. And, indeed, it is true that God doth know this thing or that thing before, for this cause, because it shall come to pass; but as we see that Peter doth teach that God did not only foresee that which befell Christ, but it was decreed by him. And hence must be gathered a general doctrine; because God doth no less show his providence in governing the whole world, than in ordaining and appointing the death of Christ. Therefore, it belongeth to God not only to know before things to come, but of his own will to determine what he will have done. This second thing did Peter declare when he said, that he was delivered by the certain and determinate counsel of God. Therefore, the foreknowledge of God is another thing than the will of God, whereby he governeth and ordereth all things. Some, which are of quicker sight, confess that God doth not only foreknow, but also govern with his beck what things soever are done in this world. Nevertheless, they imagine a confused government, as if God did give liberty to his creatures to follow their own nature. They say that the sun is ruled by the will of God, because, in giving light to us, he doth his duty, which was once enjoined him by God. They think that man hath free-will after this sort left him, because his nature is disposed or inclined unto the free choice of good and evil. But they which think so do feign that God sitteth idle in heaven. The Scripture teacheth us far otherwise, which ascribeth unto God a special government in all things, and in man's actions. Notwithstanding, it is our duty to ponder and consider to what end it teacheth this; for we must beware of doting speculations, wherewith we see many carried away. The Scripture will exercise our faith, that we may know that we are defended by the hand of God, lest we be subject to the injuries of Satan and the wicked. It is good for us to embrace this one thing; neither did Peter mean anything else in this place. Yea, we have an example set before us in Christ, whereby we may learn to be wise with sobriety. For it is out of question, that his flesh was subject to corruption, according to nature. But the providence of God did set the same free. If any man ask, whether the bones of Christ could be broken or no? it is not to be denied, that they were subject to breaking naturally, yet could there no bone be broken, because God had so appointed and determined, (John 19:36.) By this example (I say) we are taught so to give the chiefest room to God's providence, that we keep ourselves within our bounds, and that we thrust not ourselves rashly and indiscreetly into the secrets of God, whither our eyesight doth not pierce...""...Therefore, because the cross of Christ doth commonly use to trouble us at the first sight, for this cause Peter declareth that he suffered nothing by chance, or because he wanted power to deliver himself, but because it was so determined (and appointed) by God. For this knowledge alone, that the death of Christ was ordained by the eternal counsel of God, did cut off all occasion of foolish and wicked cogitation's, and did prevent all offenses which might otherwise be conceived. For we must know this, that God doth decree nothing in vain or rashly; whereupon it followeth that there was just cause for which he would have Christ to suffer.
Ping to 6,050, Mary, and the excellent exposition of Calvin on God’s word as it relates so well to your most excellent tag. 8~)
***Our deeds determine our salvation??? Then what was Christ for? Just a good example? A token? A reminder? A nudge? ***
Our Teacher, Instructor and, finally, Judge.
***”Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.” — John 6:65***
And therefore, when you add to this verse: 1 Tim 2:
1
1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
2
for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
3
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4
who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
5
For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human,
6
who gave himself as ransom for all.
and 2 Peter 3:
8
6 7 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.
9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
to the Gospel verses such as John 3:
16
For God so loved the world that he gave 7 his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn 8 the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
we understand that God wishes, wants, prefers that the whole world be saved, yet it is clear that not everyone will follow Him.
***We are saved by grace through faith in Christ. And that’s not of our own doing. It’s a gift from God (Eph. 2.)***
God’s grace is freely given to all men; they do all not freely accept Him.
Or else men are stronger and more determined than God Himself. Which apparently your church teaches.
***If God wanted every man to be saved, every man would be saved.
Or else men are stronger and more determined than God Himself. Which apparently your church teaches.***
We must understand His teachings. He says that He wishes for all men to be saved. Yet He says that not all men will be saved. We must put those two concepts together and arrive at one conclusion.
It is not optional to ignore verses such as:
Matthew 7:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’
It is not enough to believe. Even the demons believe: James 2:
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
It is required of us that we obey Jesus: 2 Thess 1:
and to grant rest along with us to you who are undergoing afflictions, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his mighty angels,
8
in blazing fire, inflicting punishment on those who do not acknowledge God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9
These will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,
We also see that belief at one time can be rejected at another: John 8:
31
Jesus then said to those Jews who believed in him, “If you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples,
32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
If you remain in My Word: this obviously means that Jesus tells them that it is possible to NOT remain in it and therefore they are lost.
1 Ti 2:3-6; 2 Pe 3:9.
All the world, yet not all will be saved.
This is why the reformed do not understand good works from filthy works
Blessed Saint John Damascene says this wonderfully....
“The remission of sins, therefore, is granted alike to all through baptism: but the grace of the Spirit is proportional to the faith and previous purification. Now, indeed, we receive the firstfruits of the Holy Spirit through baptism, and the second birth is for us the beginning and seal and security and illumination s of another life. It behoves as, then, with all our strength to steadfastly keep ourselves pure from filthy works, that we may not, like the dog returning to his vomit, make ourselves again the slaves of sin. For faith apart from works is dead, and so likewise are works apart from faith. For the true faith is attested by works.” John Damascene, Orthodox Faith, 9 (A.D. 743).
Thanks, Dr. E.
Say what you want ,Dear Brother,but 1 Cor 19-20 and 1 Tim 12 say nothing of guarantied Salvation by faith alone.
Take a look at what Blessed Saint John Chrysostom says,since you think I inserted my own personal interpretations
“This temple is holier than that; for it glistened not with gold and silver, but with the grace of the Spirit, and in place of the ark and the cherubim, it had Christ, and His Father, and the Paraclete seated within. But now all is changed, and the temple is desolate, and bare of its former beauty and comeliness, unadorned with its divine and unspeakable adornments, destitute of all security and protection; it has neither door nor bolt, and is laid open to all manner of soul-destroying and shameful thoughts; and if the thought of arrogance or fornication, or avarice, or any more accursed than these, wish to enter in there is no one to hinder them; whereas formerly, even as the Heaven is inaccessible to all these, so also was the purity of thy soul.” John Chrysostom, To the Fallen Theodore, Letter 1 (A.D. 378).
The subject was not sola scriptura. In fact, I quoted scripture to you. I asked you a simple question and you told me to read the scripture! How reciprocal is that? Since you continue to post to me, I presume you wish to debate and if you don't asnwer my question's it's because you don't know. Well, if you wish to debate, then debate! If not, then stop posting to me!
I've seen very few free graces in Catholicism. Most of the ones I'm aware of are earned by either the performance of enough good deeds, or the performance of rituals. We know that Mary is the dispenser of all graces, right? But she doesn't dispense all graces to all people does she? My understanding is that this is determined by the above, which means grace isn't free at all.
FK: ***I thought this was the nature of the conditional gift that you believe is all God gives. ***
The gift is not conditional.
That doesn't fit how the discussion has been going, so that's why I asked you the nature of the grace. If we are talking about saving grace, I would describe it as that grace which guarantees entry into Heaven. Now it could be that you believe no such grace exists, and that God only offers preparatory grace which sets a person up for him to merit his way into Heaven on his own. So for you the grace itself is free, although it guarantees nothing, a very weak grace. I don't know, so that's why I was asking.
Predestination under Reformed theology means that one is forced - there is no free will. The Reformed Holy Spirit comes upon the elect and there is a change in the individual so that the means are established for that individual for him to go to Heaven. Therefore terms like frogmarching and brainwashing, although somewhat pejorative, seem adequate.
And as I asked in another post recently, if you became aware that God was trying to change your heart as Reformers describe, you would reject that, right? You wouldn't want to be frogmarched like that, right?
The Reformed, though, take the position that man is not responsible for anything whatsoever - the perfect teenage fantasy. :)
We say over and over again that there are always consequences for sin and man is responsible for his own sin, yet we still get this. I suppose the only responsibility there is in the universe for you all is the responsibility to determine one's own destiny and salvation, to be autonomous and be able to thwart God's will. You would be right that we do not agree man is responsible for any of that.
FK: ***You place a duty upon God to create all such that they have a “chance” to go to Heaven. Please tell me the origin of that duty that you assign. ***
I place no duty. All I know of God is what He has revealed to us.
By definition, you absolutely DO place a duty on God when you blame God (on our behalf) for authoring sin. We know your side does that all the time. No one can tell me where this duty comes from.
FK: *** It appears that in Catholicism there are way too many cooks in the kitchen. This town we call the universe is simply not big enough for one omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God and the Apostolic idea of man’s sovereignty. Every single theoretical elevation of man, and there are many in Apostolic theology, corresponds necessarily to a diminution of the God revealed to us in the scriptures.***
You have just demonstrated that the Reformed view of Creation does not allow for all Scripture; indeed, right from the beginning of the Reformation, Martin Luther axed the Deuterocanicals and was preparing to remove James, Revelation and most of the Epistles except for some of Paul.
Does this mean you think the Bible teaches in some places the elevation of man and the diminution of God? :) I'm trying to connect your statement as a response to mine.
Jesus spent most of the Gospels instructing us on what to do. If nothing that we do matters, then why did He instruct us over and over, both plainly and in parable?
Again, ONLY YOUR SIDE says anyone believes that nothing we do matters. I have given detailed responses more than once explaining why we do not think that. Apparently they are not getting through. The only way you can be right is if you believe the only things that "matter" are those things we do to earn our salvation by merit. Once you admit to that then I will agree with you. :)
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