I've seen very few free graces in Catholicism. Most of the ones I'm aware of are earned by either the performance of enough good deeds, or the performance of rituals. We know that Mary is the dispenser of all graces, right? But she doesn't dispense all graces to all people does she? My understanding is that this is determined by the above, which means grace isn't free at all.
FK: ***I thought this was the nature of the conditional gift that you believe is all God gives. ***
The gift is not conditional.
That doesn't fit how the discussion has been going, so that's why I asked you the nature of the grace. If we are talking about saving grace, I would describe it as that grace which guarantees entry into Heaven. Now it could be that you believe no such grace exists, and that God only offers preparatory grace which sets a person up for him to merit his way into Heaven on his own. So for you the grace itself is free, although it guarantees nothing, a very weak grace. I don't know, so that's why I was asking.
Predestination under Reformed theology means that one is forced - there is no free will. The Reformed Holy Spirit comes upon the elect and there is a change in the individual so that the means are established for that individual for him to go to Heaven. Therefore terms like frogmarching and brainwashing, although somewhat pejorative, seem adequate.
And as I asked in another post recently, if you became aware that God was trying to change your heart as Reformers describe, you would reject that, right? You wouldn't want to be frogmarched like that, right?
The Reformed, though, take the position that man is not responsible for anything whatsoever - the perfect teenage fantasy. :)
We say over and over again that there are always consequences for sin and man is responsible for his own sin, yet we still get this. I suppose the only responsibility there is in the universe for you all is the responsibility to determine one's own destiny and salvation, to be autonomous and be able to thwart God's will. You would be right that we do not agree man is responsible for any of that.
FK: ***You place a duty upon God to create all such that they have a “chance” to go to Heaven. Please tell me the origin of that duty that you assign. ***
I place no duty. All I know of God is what He has revealed to us.
By definition, you absolutely DO place a duty on God when you blame God (on our behalf) for authoring sin. We know your side does that all the time. No one can tell me where this duty comes from.
FK: *** It appears that in Catholicism there are way too many cooks in the kitchen. This town we call the universe is simply not big enough for one omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God and the Apostolic idea of man’s sovereignty. Every single theoretical elevation of man, and there are many in Apostolic theology, corresponds necessarily to a diminution of the God revealed to us in the scriptures.***
You have just demonstrated that the Reformed view of Creation does not allow for all Scripture; indeed, right from the beginning of the Reformation, Martin Luther axed the Deuterocanicals and was preparing to remove James, Revelation and most of the Epistles except for some of Paul.
Does this mean you think the Bible teaches in some places the elevation of man and the diminution of God? :) I'm trying to connect your statement as a response to mine.
Jesus spent most of the Gospels instructing us on what to do. If nothing that we do matters, then why did He instruct us over and over, both plainly and in parable?
Again, ONLY YOUR SIDE says anyone believes that nothing we do matters. I have given detailed responses more than once explaining why we do not think that. Apparently they are not getting through. The only way you can be right is if you believe the only things that "matter" are those things we do to earn our salvation by merit. Once you admit to that then I will agree with you. :)
***How can one purchase a gift freely given? You can’t. Grace is the Way; we must still walk it.
I’ve seen very few free graces in Catholicism. ***
Why don’t we head on out to the Catechism to see what it says about Grace?
Grace.
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, “since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:”50
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.”53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54
2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits”57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’”58
There is a difference between sanctifying grace and charisms. Sanctifying grace is extended to all; charisms are given by the Holy Spirit to whom He will.
***If we are talking about saving grace, I would describe it as that grace which guarantees entry into Heaven.***
Since it is possible to reject God, I would say that it is guarantees us to be able to walk the Way.
***And as I asked in another post recently, if you became aware that God was trying to change your heart as Reformers describe, you would reject that, right? You wouldn’t want to be frogmarched like that, right?***
Lucifer made the choice that he made; countless humans make the same choice. Without the Grace of God infused in me in Baptism, I would not be able to accept Him. But I can choose to reject Him by embracing sin.
***We say over and over again that there are always consequences for sin and man is responsible for his own sin, yet we still get this. I suppose the only responsibility there is in the universe for you all is the responsibility to determine one’s own destiny and salvation, to be autonomous and be able to thwart God’s will. ***
You say that there are consequences, yet you don’t really list any. Jesus spent most of the Gospels instructing us how to act; to tell us that if we do not obey him that we will lose our salvation, and yet he tells us in 1 Thess, in 2 Peter and in John 8:31-32 that He wills us all to be saved, yet He tells the Jews that it is possible to lose their salvation.
All are called. The consequences of sin are death. What are the consequences of the Reformed?
***By definition, you absolutely DO place a duty on God when you blame God (on our behalf) for authoring sin.***
I don’t claim that God authored sin. Calvin did.
***Again, ONLY YOUR SIDE says anyone believes that nothing we do matters. I have given detailed responses more than once explaining why we do not think that. Apparently they are not getting through.***
If you wouldn’t mind, would you please post them again? They most certainly have not gotten through to me.