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***How can one purchase a gift freely given? You can’t. Grace is the Way; we must still walk it.

I’ve seen very few free graces in Catholicism. ***

Why don’t we head on out to the Catechism to see what it says about Grace?

Grace.

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, “since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:”50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.”53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits”57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’”58

There is a difference between sanctifying grace and charisms. Sanctifying grace is extended to all; charisms are given by the Holy Spirit to whom He will.

***If we are talking about saving grace, I would describe it as that grace which guarantees entry into Heaven.***

Since it is possible to reject God, I would say that it is guarantees us to be able to walk the Way.

***And as I asked in another post recently, if you became aware that God was trying to change your heart as Reformers describe, you would reject that, right? You wouldn’t want to be frogmarched like that, right?***

Lucifer made the choice that he made; countless humans make the same choice. Without the Grace of God infused in me in Baptism, I would not be able to accept Him. But I can choose to reject Him by embracing sin.

***We say over and over again that there are always consequences for sin and man is responsible for his own sin, yet we still get this. I suppose the only responsibility there is in the universe for you all is the responsibility to determine one’s own destiny and salvation, to be autonomous and be able to thwart God’s will. ***

You say that there are consequences, yet you don’t really list any. Jesus spent most of the Gospels instructing us how to act; to tell us that if we do not obey him that we will lose our salvation, and yet he tells us in 1 Thess, in 2 Peter and in John 8:31-32 that He wills us all to be saved, yet He tells the Jews that it is possible to lose their salvation.

All are called. The consequences of sin are death. What are the consequences of the Reformed?

***By definition, you absolutely DO place a duty on God when you blame God (on our behalf) for authoring sin.***

I don’t claim that God authored sin. Calvin did.

***Again, ONLY YOUR SIDE says anyone believes that nothing we do matters. I have given detailed responses more than once explaining why we do not think that. Apparently they are not getting through.***

If you wouldn’t mind, would you please post them again? They most certainly have not gotten through to me.

Why don’t we head on out to the Catechism to see what it says about Grace?

OK, this is helpful to understand the nature of the grace you are talking about. It is a helper to the doer, and guarantor of nothing. So according to this part of the Catechism, there is no such thing as saving grace that actually NECESSARILY leads to salvation itself, it only helps the person to go forward and possibly achieve salvation through his own free will decisions.

But of course this doesn't interfere with man's sovereign will. So according to this God is finished when He leaves us on our own to decide for ourselves what to do next in our quest for salvation. This is what I was looking for, so thanks. :) When we even talk about grace itself we have to be aware that we are talking about completely different concepts.

FK: ***If we are talking about saving grace, I would describe it as that grace which guarantees entry into Heaven.***

Since it is possible to reject God, I would say that it is guarantees us to be able to walk the Way.

That matches the Catechism. So there really is no such thing as "saving grace". The best that God offers is "enabling grace".

FK: ***We say over and over again that there are always consequences for sin and man is responsible for his own sin, yet we still get this. ...... ***

You say that there are consequences, yet you don’t really list any.

This is what I'm talking about:

Heb 12:4-11 : 4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline ,and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves,and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." 7 Endure hardship as discipline ; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?

8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline ), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

There is consequence for sins after salvation. These consequences can take any form.

Jesus spent most of the Gospels instructing us how to act; to tell us that if we do not obey him that we will lose our salvation, and yet he tells us in 1 Thess, in 2 Peter and in John 8:31-32 that He wills us all to be saved, yet He tells the Jews that it is possible to lose their salvation.

Jesus spent most of the Gospels telling us if we do not obey him that we will lose our salvation??? :) Wow! I guess that makes Jesus a colossal LIAR in the rest of the Gospels! :) He says plenty of times things like "those who are saved will do this....", but I have no idea where He even remotely says MANY times, as you allege, anything like that God will break His promise to true believers, presumably for failure to perform. (God MUST break His promises to follow Latin theology.)

All are called. The consequences of sin are death. What are the consequences of the Reformed?

The consequences of the Reformed are a Godly understanding and teaching of God's Holy word, and a defense of God's sovereignty and Holiness. :) In Reformed theology, the consequence of sin is death, just like the verse says, UNLESS, all sin has been paid for by a suitable sacrifice. Our Lord Jesus mercifully and willingly served as that sacrifice. It saddens me that some faiths try to take that away from Him.

For example, imagine that you are soon passed the age of majority (say 18) and decide to become a Catholic. You take the classes and then are baptized. Now as I understand it, at that moment Jesus has paid for all of your sins up to 18, plus whatever counts for original sin. Is that right? Now, for the rest of your life you are on your own in paying for sins, so if you live to be 90 you and your priests will have taken care of all of those sins during that time. IOW, you don't even have Jesus paying for half of your sins. You took care of most of them yourself through penance or being absolved by your priests. To me that totally cheapens Christ on the cross and what He did for us.

FK: ***Again, ONLY YOUR SIDE says anyone believes that nothing we do matters. I have given detailed responses more than once explaining why we do not think that. Apparently they are not getting through.***

If you wouldn’t mind, would you please post them again? They most certainly have not gotten through to me.

I have said that what we do matters because God ordains action within time, and what God ordains matters. So, if God ordained that I witness to the mailman tomorrow, then it matters whether that happens or not. Of course it will happen.

Now, most of the time when this subject comes up I am given the impression that the only things that people do that "matter" to Apostolics are those things that further along salvation, what I call earning more points. But under Reformed theology, even those things matter, first because they were ordained, and second because perseverance IS a component of salvation.

So if those things didn't happen, then salvation would be lost. However, that only exists theoretically because God promises that He will not allow that to happen. If Christ allows a sheep to fail to persevere, then He has let one slip through His hands. The Bible says that Christ pledges that won't happen. I believe Him. Acts of perseverance matter because God ordained and promised that they would happen, not because they serve to improve on Christ's finished work.