Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Sorry. That's not Christianity. Christ is Love. The Reformed are sadly following some weird cult stuff.
KOS: The key is the authority to bind and losen.
One thing I do admire about the EO posters here is your willingness to state what you believe, even when you are wrong. Clearly your understanding of what the Key to the Kingdom is why your church preaches a works based salvation rather than The Gospel.
Only God determines who is and is not saved, not clerics. Believing The Gospel is the Key.
FK, there is no contradiction between what The Church has always and everywhere believed and what the scriptures which were measured against that belief say. Some people erroneously think there is.
They can fall FURTHER from the faith. Murderers are farther away from the faith than otherwise nice people who are lost.
Besides, Paul is saying "Let no one in any way deceive you" [2 Thes 2:3]." If you are "protected" (if God won't let you fall away) who can deceive you?
It is an outward exhortation, just like "Believe in the Lord". God promises that the elect WILL. If we go with your interpretation of Paul here, then you would have to say that Paul was more than a little schizophrenic, given his preaching of assurance and God's sovereignty elsewhere.
If the Reformed theology holds any water, then those who are predestined to be deceived WILL be deceived and it is not a matter of anyone LETTING themselves be deceived! Ergo, the Reformed theology holds no water. It's full of holes.
Those who are predestined to receive salvational grace will believe and those who aren't, won't. Paul is giving a reminder of the proper mindset. "Be as wise as serpents, and innocent as doves". That kind of thing. Ultimately, God is in full control and will work everything out. One of the tools He uses to accomplish that is the scripture giving us the proper mindset (sanctification). It all works together.
FK: Paul is just saying that God will leave them to themselves.
NO HE IS NOT! It clearly says that GOD will SEND deluding spirits to DECEIVE them. Which part of this don't you understand?
The effects are the same and the totality of the Bible is clear that God does not author sin. Therefore, if your own interpretation of this passage is that the Bible says that God authors sin, then the Bible contradicts itself. But you are forcing that with your very narrow interpretation. IOW, you are causing the result you seek, the discrediting of the Bible. I suppose you could say the same thing right back at me, so it comes down to what our positions about the Bible itself are in the first place. If it is just a collection of writings by fallible men, then sure it's going to contradict. But if it is the Holy word of God, then it won't.
[Re: Rom 1:26-27] How is it THEIR perversion when God "gave them to shameful lusts"??? Paul is saying that we have no control over what we believe OR do, which includes with whom we want to share "shameful lusts," yet is is somehow OUR responsibility!
Paul is preaching Reformed theology, as usual. :) God withdrew from them ("gave them over to their own natures"), and they did what their natures led them to do without His protection. Since God has no duty to protect, they are to blame for their sins. If God DID have a duty, then it would be God's fault.
I really don’t get what you’re saying here. I don’t understand this part evil stuff you are saying here. Yes, Christ IS love. The Reformed think that too. Where are you getting these ideas?
Amen, FK. Preach it!
Like what, getoffmylawn. Explain that statement to me, please.
What the Bible says is the same as knowing the Ten Commandments, but without having the ability to carry them out perfectly, on our own. It is enough to avoid excuse, but it is not enough for salvation. Salvation comes by grace only given to some.
Read Hebrews 8. The end says (never mind that this only pertains to the Jews), with my emphases: ...
The whole of verse 10, which you omit, says that the Covenant is with the "House of Israel". Paul shows us who the House of Israel is, all believers, not Jews by birth.
What they do after that will be either their blessing (obeying the Lord) or their downfall (abusing the blessings He gave), because He has forgiven the sins of ALL.
By Christ's work He has forgiven all the sins of all believers, not all people. Otherwise, you would have salvation being completely determined by the actions of man. I don't recall your ever saying that before.
Well, same here vis-a-vis various Protestant/Baptist groups.
Clearly your understanding of what the Key to the Kingdom is why your church preaches a works based salvation rather than The Gospel. Only God determines who is and is not saved, not clerics. Believing The Gospel is the Key.
How biblical is that? Not very. The Gospel (Matthew 5) tells us what we have to do or how we have to be to inherit the kingdom, and to see God. Try reading the Beatitudes. No faith required there. And as far as what the keys being the authority given to the Apostles, the NT couldn't be clearer:
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." [Mat 16:19]
Nothing ambiguous about it. The Lord gives the same authority to the rest in Mat 18:18, and the Lord gives the apostles the authority to forgive sins:
"If you [apostles] forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." [John 20:23 ]
I don't know. Maybe we don't read the same Bible.
False! Hell was not created for men but for the devil and his angels. (cf Mat 25:41). That some men will end up there is because they will decide to follow the devil (by choice). It's their decision, not God's.
The only thing wrong with this part of your statement is the word "FALSE"! :) That the original purpose of hell was for fallen angels is IRRELEVANT to the fact that men go there now, and deserve to after the Fall. Hell was created before the Fall, right? But for the rest, you're mostly right, men go to hell by their own choices. (I would only add that original sin by iteself IS enough to condemn.)
We have been freed by Christ, who is the New Covenant, to either come to Him or not.
Christ frees the elect to do good. The Truth is only given to some. The non-elect are not free to do good, but are free to do evil.
FK: "I mean, if I and a non-believer were up for the same job, and God decided to reward me, then the other guy (who was more qualified) was interfered with."
What makes you think a believer is any better than the non-believer? How prideful of you!
Please re-read my example. In it I say that the other guy, the non-believer, is MORE qualified for the job than me. I was just noting that others can be "negatively" affected by the blessings God gives to His children. IOW, what God does here on earth has ramifications far beyond our ability to comprehend. Everyone is affected by God's actions. That can be seen as "interference", which you argue against.
God does intercede if our will is in harmony with His and our intentions are pure.
Yes, and in the whole that affects everyone.
It's that works theology that has you so turned around. I know it's very hard to turn away from. My father-in-law was EO, but praise the LORD before he died he accepted Christ as his Saviour. I read the Beatitudes and see faith.
I don't know. Maybe we don't read the same Bible.
Clearly we don't. I understand what I must do.
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them. "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom he sent."
OTOH, you have made it clear you believe men have the power over your salvation. I don't. My faith is in Jesus.
In that case, the aborted infants and infants who die after birth all go to hell in your book.
Christ frees the elect to do good. The Truth is only given to some. The non-elect are not free to do good, but are free to do evil
We don't share the same faith, FK. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, thereby freeing all men to come to God. Those who don't, condmen themsleves because God doens't force; He simply lets them be what their nature is, as like to remind us.
IOW, what God does here on earth has ramifications far beyond our ability to comprehend
That is very, very, very likely, FK. :) If there is one thing we learn in life it is that our comprehension is limited.
Please re-read my example. In it I say that the other guy, the non-believer, is MORE qualified for the job than me. I was just noting that others can be "negatively" affected by the blessings God gives to His children
I apologize if I didn't understand your point. God predestines everyone, challenging us to do the right things to overcome our destination and meet on that narrow path to God. Those who are abudantly blessed are to humble themsleves, the rich are to sell or give what they have in abundance , and the disavantaged are not to wallow in self pitty but pull themselves in faith out of their predicament.
Remember the story of the Samaritan woman giving Christ wanter. Her predicament was not to be saved, having been born a Samaritan. But she overcame predestination and was saved by recognizing the Lord even though she might not have, had she stuck to her rleigion.
What I mean by faith, FK, is an increidble example of a blind Orthodox woman who, having heard people pitty her for her affliction, said "But I am so blessed! Imagine, the first thing I will see will be the face of God." That is the kind of biblical faith I am talking about. It humbles. She turned her disavantage into a blessing and thanks God for it! She overcame her destiny.
There is plenty. For example:
Luke 2:25-32 : 25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
29 "Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace. 30 For my eyes have seen your salvation, 31 which you have prepared in the sight of all people, 32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."
See also:
Isa 49:5-6 : 5 And now the Lord says — he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord and my God has been my strength — 6 he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
Ps 98:3 : 3 He has remembered his love and his faithfulness to the house of Israel; all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
Acts 9:15-16 : 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."
There are others, but you can see that The Bible is plain on the matter.
[Re: Gen. 6:6] FK: "He meant "sorry" in the sense of "it's a shame that happened". It was nevertheless part of His plan. I'm sure He was "sorry" about the crucifixion too, but that was also a part of His plan."
Oh boy! This just keeps getting deeper and deeper. Now God was sorry this happened even though it was His plan to happen!?! How can you believe this?
I can believe it the same way I believe that the Father was "sorry" to watch His Son die on a cross, even though that was His plan too. The Bible proves that.
How can you not see the Reformed error that God is held captive of His own "plan?" That the "plan" is the highest authority to which even God is subject and has no control over? That's childish, naive and silly.
LOL! Ummmm. Let's say that I do not understand your analysis. :) The Christian God is omnipotent and all knowing. He has a plan for the world. He implements that plan within time. If God makes mistakes, then He would change His plan and adapt accordingly (my best guess at your position by your arguments). However, if God doesn't make mistakes, then there is never a need to change His plan for any reason. Therefore, God cannot be held captive by a perfect plan that He is simply executing flawlessly within time. It seems you are criticizing Reformers for not letting God be only human!!!! :)
In dealing with religion on these forums, I have come to see great wisdom in Albert Einstein's take on the whole religion business: "the Bible [is] a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
And that is one reason our pastor says all the time that Christianity is not a religion. Instead, it is a relationship. While Einstein's brilliance cannot be overstated in some areas, he was not exactly a stellar example of spiritual wisdom. If his statement that you quoted is indicative, it does not sound like he had ears to hear or eyes to see.
I am sorry, FK. We don't see eye to eye. This has been an interesting eye opener but I don't see any reason to continue this. Nothing personal.
No offense taken. It has been very interesting for me too, and I hope to see you again in the future on perhaps some other issues. :)
YES, so why does your position appear to be that Jesus did not want His own disciples to understand His basic identity? What's worse is that you have Him compounding the riddle with a flat out lie, that the Father gave the wrong information to Peter, etc. A riddle is different from a lie. Saying that the Temple would be brought down and raised up again in three days is a riddle. Jesus didn't want them to get it at that moment. Saying that one is blessed because the Father TOLD him that Jesus is human-only is a lie. How does God remedy a lie He has told them?
No one at that time, not even the Apostles, could fathom that they were standing in front of God in human form.
How about "with God all things are possible"? Jesus was standing right in front of them. I agree that He didn't give them all understanding right away, but my beef is that I really disagree that Jesus actively sent them down a false path.
FK: "Yet, apparently according to you Jesus let this go and Peter had the totally wrong impression, VALIDATED by Jesus when He confirmed that this false teaching came directly from the Father."
The Gospel of John is not in agreement with the synoptic Gospels.
OK, now we're getting somewhere. :) If they are in conflict, then how can anyone or any group of men read the OT THROUGH "them"? That is how Apostolics tell me they treat the OT (specifically you and Mark), but all I see here is chaos. :)
It's the Christ and His message in the Gospels that count, not individual author's perceptions.
But according to you, the Gospels ARE (ONLY) the individual authors' perceptions. How can one discern the correct Christ? Oh, wait. Let me guess. :)
Christ taught what it will take for us to do in order to go to heaven (Beatitudes), and how to pray and how to conduct ourselves vis-a-vis our friends and adversaries. Much of that is missing in the OT.
Actually, I would say that the works-based salvation model, such as you describe, was MORE believed in the OT. With the fuller understanding of the New Covenant, many who think that Paul taught and wrote the Truth came to know that it is never a matter of what it will take in terms of deeds by us to get us into Heaven. Paul understood that there ARE NO DEEDS we can do to atone for our sins. There ARE NO DEEDS that earn us enough God points to merit a membership. Paul understood that Jesus did it ALL. (Somebody should write a song. :)
FK: "Without God, the essential teachings in the Bible are not really going to ring true."
There are many people who have good hearts and who are poor in spirit who are not Christians. God's laws (or morality and virtue) are universally known to mankind. They may not have the fullness of God's revelation (through Christ's Incarnation), but they still know that doing unto others what you wouldn't want done unto you is morally wrong.
Then what of those with "good hearts" but no faith? Are those without faith who do a reasonably good job doing what the Beatitudes say more likely to be saved than those who have faith but do comparatively less?
Ah, but assuming we're focusing on the NT, if the scriptures, in oral or written form, only REFLECT what you say your Church believed before, then the Church is superior in its own collective mind. Which was first and which is superior, the current teachings of your Church, or the original teachings that were later written down in scripture? I think your answer must be "the Church's". We believe the opposite, as we say that God's Church's teachings should be a reflection of God's word as it was taught orally first and then as it was written down. That's what Paul taught.
Truth be told, Kosta, a year ago that from you would have really bothered me. But now it doesn't. :)
Well, that would be all over the Bible, MWD. A load is a load regardless if the one who is burdened carries it with joy or not. Some people God chose were loaded with incredible burden—Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist, Mary, the prophets and the disciples, etc. and let's not forget Jesus (in His human nature). And in John 17, He places the burden of people believing in Jesus on the words of His disciples, on the work of the clergy. Of course, the champions of faith, the saints, took their burden in strict obedience and complete faith in God, with joy as you say, and humility.
FK: They can fall FURTHER from the faith. Murderers are farther away from the faith than otherwise nice people who are lost.
How do you know what faith other people have? Most are not murderers but could be unrepentant adulterers! The Bible is clear that breaking one law is like breaking all of them. Sin is sin, and unrepentant sinner who goes on sinning (because God "paid" for His sins) is lost. Repentance doesn't mean "I am sorry...." and do it again. Repentance means changing your lifestyle and never wishing to commit sin again. It's an attitude, not a parking ticket. Either you are proud or repentant. There is no middle ground.
Kosta: Besides, Paul is saying "Let no one in any way deceive you" [2 Thes 2:3]." If you are "protected" (if God won't let you fall away) who can deceive you?
FK: It is an outward exhortation, just like "Believe in the Lord".
No, it's not. "Let" involves your volition. We do not wake up one day and say "I will let myself belive in God today." Letting soemthing happen involves will, and faith is not something we can will. We can only will to do everything to remain faithful. Faith is a gift. What we do with it is either letting ourselves stray or not.
If we go with your interpretation of Paul here, then you would have to say that Paul was more than a little schizophrenic, given his preaching of assurance and God's sovereignty elsewhere
Apostle Paul says a lot of things to a lot of people, not all of which is always in line with the what the Church teaches or what the Protestants/Baptists believe. Many groups found St. Paul to speak their faith on their behalf.
Those who are predestined to receive salvational grace will believe and those who aren't, won't. Paul is giving a reminder of the proper mindset. "Be as wise as serpents, and innocent as doves".
That's not how the Church sees predestination. And St. Paul's statement involves our attitude and our decisions. The Church recognizes that God predestines people to be of different color, social status, nationality, etc. But we are not "stuck" in predestination. God does it for His reasons which we do not understand. He gives more to some and less to others. But in all cases God wants us to be moral and rational beings, whether we are rich or poor, healthy or sick, fortunate or unfortunate. We must try to overcome our predestined status by desiring to be on that narrow path that leads to God. Everyone has a task to overcome their predestination and come to the Lord.
FK: Paul is just saying that God will leave them to themselves.
Kosta: NO HE IS NOT! It clearly says that GOD will SEND deluding spirits to DECEIVE them. Which part of this don't you understand?
FK: The effects are the same and the totality of the Bible is clear that God does not author sin
Well, if deception is not of God, then sending deceiving spirits by God would constitute "authoring sin." Knowing Christ of the Gospels, I would say most Christians would say that God doesn't do that. However, some people who left their marks on the Bible did. The OT-mindset allows that. The NT-mindset doesn't.
But you are forcing that with your very narrow interpretation. IOW, you are causing the result you seek, the discrediting of the Bible
There is no force here. The sentence "God will send deceiving spirits" is very clear. Whoever wrote that believed that God does send deceiving spirits and therefore cause someone to be deceived.
If it is just a collection of writings by fallible men, then sure it's going to contradict. But if it is the Holy word of God, then it won't.
God didn't write different versions of the Bible. Fallible men did.
Paul is preaching Reformed theology, as usual. :) God withdrew from them ("gave them over to their own natures"), and they did what their natures led them to do without His protection. Since God has no duty to protect, they are to blame for their sins.
Why are men blamed for their nature? This is the kind of attitude that allowed people to "blame" someone for the color of their skin! They had nothing to do with that. Cats are cats and dogs are dogs, and men are men by nature they are born in, and none deserves to be "blamed" for it. We can only be blamed for what we do on our own volition that is wrong, once we know what is wrong and what is right.
No, salvation comes from knowing the Ten Commandments and wanting in your heart at all times to obey them, even if you fail. Honestly try even if you honestly fail.
The whole of verse 10, which you omit, says that the Covenant is with the "House of Israel". Paul shows us who the House of Israel is, all believers, not Jews by birth.
That is Paul's invention, and I would say a necessary one in order to save the Church from extinction in Israel. And how good that invention worked! You think that what I am saying is negative. It's not. It only shows that the narrow (OT) idea of what constitutes the "people of God" is obsolete and that the fullness of God's revelation through Christ dying for everyone's sins reveals that God desires to save all men, not just the Jews.
As far as the book of Hebrews is concerned, it wasn't written by St. Paul and to the best of my knowledge does not potentially include all the people in the concept of Israel.
By Christ's work He has forgiven all the sins of all believers, not all people. Otherwise, you would have salvation being completely determined by the actions of man.
By dying on the cross He took the sins of the whole world on His soul. That freed everyone who ever lived, lives and will live to come to God. But in order to come to God, we must respond to His call and follow Him. But in order to respond to His call, we must be free. And Christ made everyone free. Those who choose to follow God or not to follow Him do so on their own. They are free to serve whomever they wish.
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