FK: They can fall FURTHER from the faith. Murderers are farther away from the faith than otherwise nice people who are lost.
How do you know what faith other people have? Most are not murderers but could be unrepentant adulterers! The Bible is clear that breaking one law is like breaking all of them. Sin is sin, and unrepentant sinner who goes on sinning (because God "paid" for His sins) is lost. Repentance doesn't mean "I am sorry...." and do it again. Repentance means changing your lifestyle and never wishing to commit sin again. It's an attitude, not a parking ticket. Either you are proud or repentant. There is no middle ground.
Kosta: Besides, Paul is saying "Let no one in any way deceive you" [2 Thes 2:3]." If you are "protected" (if God won't let you fall away) who can deceive you?
FK: It is an outward exhortation, just like "Believe in the Lord".
No, it's not. "Let" involves your volition. We do not wake up one day and say "I will let myself belive in God today." Letting soemthing happen involves will, and faith is not something we can will. We can only will to do everything to remain faithful. Faith is a gift. What we do with it is either letting ourselves stray or not.
If we go with your interpretation of Paul here, then you would have to say that Paul was more than a little schizophrenic, given his preaching of assurance and God's sovereignty elsewhere
Apostle Paul says a lot of things to a lot of people, not all of which is always in line with the what the Church teaches or what the Protestants/Baptists believe. Many groups found St. Paul to speak their faith on their behalf.
Those who are predestined to receive salvational grace will believe and those who aren't, won't. Paul is giving a reminder of the proper mindset. "Be as wise as serpents, and innocent as doves".
That's not how the Church sees predestination. And St. Paul's statement involves our attitude and our decisions. The Church recognizes that God predestines people to be of different color, social status, nationality, etc. But we are not "stuck" in predestination. God does it for His reasons which we do not understand. He gives more to some and less to others. But in all cases God wants us to be moral and rational beings, whether we are rich or poor, healthy or sick, fortunate or unfortunate. We must try to overcome our predestined status by desiring to be on that narrow path that leads to God. Everyone has a task to overcome their predestination and come to the Lord.
FK: Paul is just saying that God will leave them to themselves.
Kosta: NO HE IS NOT! It clearly says that GOD will SEND deluding spirits to DECEIVE them. Which part of this don't you understand?
FK: The effects are the same and the totality of the Bible is clear that God does not author sin
Well, if deception is not of God, then sending deceiving spirits by God would constitute "authoring sin." Knowing Christ of the Gospels, I would say most Christians would say that God doesn't do that. However, some people who left their marks on the Bible did. The OT-mindset allows that. The NT-mindset doesn't.
But you are forcing that with your very narrow interpretation. IOW, you are causing the result you seek, the discrediting of the Bible
There is no force here. The sentence "God will send deceiving spirits" is very clear. Whoever wrote that believed that God does send deceiving spirits and therefore cause someone to be deceived.
If it is just a collection of writings by fallible men, then sure it's going to contradict. But if it is the Holy word of God, then it won't.
God didn't write different versions of the Bible. Fallible men did.
Paul is preaching Reformed theology, as usual. :) God withdrew from them ("gave them over to their own natures"), and they did what their natures led them to do without His protection. Since God has no duty to protect, they are to blame for their sins.
Why are men blamed for their nature? This is the kind of attitude that allowed people to "blame" someone for the color of their skin! They had nothing to do with that. Cats are cats and dogs are dogs, and men are men by nature they are born in, and none deserves to be "blamed" for it. We can only be blamed for what we do on our own volition that is wrong, once we know what is wrong and what is right.
I don't know about any particular person other than myself, but the Bible describes people with varying strengths of faith. While "sin is sin" in terms of being worthy of Heaven, the Bible also gives different levels of punishment for different sins. So, it seems logical that if among the saved, some have stronger, more mature faith than others, that among the lost some are farther away from God's standards than others.
Sin is sin, and unrepentant sinner who goes on sinning (because God "paid" for His sins) is lost.
That's right, and is indicative that the person never had true faith to begin with.
Repentance means changing your lifestyle and never wishing to commit sin again. It's an attitude, not a parking ticket. Either you are proud or repentant. There is no middle ground.
AMEN! :)
That's not how the Church sees predestination. ......... We must try to overcome our predestined status by desiring to be on that narrow path that leads to God. Everyone has a task to overcome their predestination and come to the Lord.
Yes, that is a completely different understanding of the word than we have. We look at verses like these:
Rom 8:29-30 : 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined , he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Eph 1:4-5 : 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Eph 1:11 : 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, ...
So as you can see, we as believers have no interest in overcoming God's predestination as it is explicitly found in the Bible. It also makes no sense to us that man is powerful enough to overcome God anyway.
Well, if deception is not of God, then sending deceiving spirits by God would constitute "authoring sin." Knowing Christ of the Gospels, I would say most Christians would say that God doesn't do that. However, some people who left their marks on the Bible did. The OT-mindset allows that. The NT-mindset doesn't.
I think you have caused me to reexamine my position on this, so thank you for that. :) Originally, it didn't occur to me that there was such a thing as "righteous lying", but then I thought that since the Bible is clear there is such a thing as righteous killing, why not? So, I looked for it and sure enough it's right there in scripture:
Ex 1:15-21 : 15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, "Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?"
19 The midwives answered Pharaoh, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive." 20 So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. 21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own.
It is clear that God condoned this particular lie, therefore there is a precedent for "righteous lying". A real world example I found was Christian Germans hiding Jews during WWII and lying to the Gestapo. I can see God condoning that too. So, in this light it doesn't look so bad for God to send deceiving spirits. Since it was done in righteousness, it cannot be sin.
Why are men blamed for their nature? This is the kind of attitude that allowed people to "blame" someone for the color of their skin!
I know it DOES sound very unfair. But it is even more unfair for an innocent man, indeed God Himself, to die on a cross for sins He never committed. I'd say it all balances out in favor of the elect. God made one set of people whom He loved and wanted with Him in Heaven. He also made all the other people and every other thing in the world. That is really God's prerogative as the Creator. We are in no position to complain, as the Bible says.