Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
LOL. Now if we were of some other persuasion, we'd be screaming for that post to be pulled and the thread locked.
But since we are confident in whom we believe, and the fact that we can and do refute the errors of the EO and RCC every day on this forum, this post included, we have no need to act like a whiner.
By the grace of God alone, we "count it all joy."
But what about when the scriptures totally disagree with what is said to be always and everywhere believed? Something has to give. In every case I am aware of the scriptures are interpreted to mean something failing reason and logic. IOW, it "looks" like the meaning of certain passages is read to match the belief, instead of the belief conforming to the text. That's why it appears that the Apostolic Church is above the scriptures. The claim as I understand it is that your beliefs came first, THEREFORE the inspired word of God must be interpreted to match those uninspired beliefs in all cases of contradiction. That would definitely put the Church above.
You owe an apology to every Christian on these threads for that outrageous statement. Talk about hate... you revealed your own here.
And your leaders are fallible as well.
If God didn’t do this in reaction to what we humans did, then what prompted it?
God's Holy plan from the beginning. God doesn't just know the beginning from the end, He determines the beginning from the end. Otherwise, He is subject to time and the random decisions of men. He is simply one more cog in the universe, etc. God is much more powerful than that.
Since not even St. Paul was assured, how is it that you guys are?
Paul certainly was assured. For example:
2 Tim 4:6-8 : 6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race , I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day — and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
Paul understood that it is by grace we are saved, through faith. He knew he had received grace and he knew that he had true faith. So, he knew that he was saved.
Wow. And none of this relates to anything of your doing or not doing. Nothing of what you do or not do relates to anything. You are saved and no sin matters. This is fantastic.
It sounds to me that we use the word "matters" fundamentally differently. :) By your responses it appears that to you the only things that matter are those works that make us more acceptable to God for Him to let us into Heaven. Obviously the Reformed do not share this view. We believe that Christ did the thing that matters.
I was thinking just the opposite. I think kosta won his argument on this thread many many pages ago, I've been convinced the so-called Christian "Reformed" aren't actually Christians for quite some time. Kosta and others have convinced me that the Truth lies in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Kosta didn't convince me that the Reformed Protestants weren't Christians. The Reformed did that all by themselves by their telling me that their God is a mean and vindictive jerk that's often inclined to adopt the petty and impetuous emotions of simple men. You've got a really mean God over there, and I'd rather be an atheist than have to count on having that guy's sunbeam of love fall on me for eternity.
It's pretty cool that you dig our book though. Those old Othodox Catholic guys that put the Bible together really had their heads on straight.
Don't you find it kinda strange that we believed what we believed before the books of the Bible could be pulled together by the old Orthodox Catholic dudes is the same as what we believed after the books were compiled, and is exactly the same as what we believe to this day? If you don't believe what we believe, you should probably just say, "Oops!" and then go find your own books.
Sounds very familiar- Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
That is why God gave us the Bible, to check to see if what they say lines up with it (Acts.17:11,1Jn.4:1)
That is why God gave us the Bible, to check to see if what they say lines up with it (Acts.17:11)
AMEN!
Kosta didn't convince me that the Reformed Protestants weren't Christians. The Reformed did that all by themselves by their telling me that their God is a mean and vindictive jerk that's often inclined to adopt the petty and impetuous emotions of simple men. You've got a really mean God over there, and I'd rather be an atheist than have to count on having that guy's sunbeam of love fall on me for eternity.
ROTFLOL!
Sounds like you're right where you belong, and close to atheism, as you say.
Believe in your "co-redeemer" and your works-based salvation and your "another Christ" and your prayers to dead people and your "falling down to the stock of a tree."
As for me and mine, we'll take God's word that there is only "one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus," who has paid for all the sins of His flock and who will lose none whom the Father has given Him.
It's pretty cool that you dig our book though. Those old Othodox Catholic guys that put the Bible together really had their heads on straight.
If you're laying claim to the Bible, don't you think you should try reading it sometime?
And you call yourself a Sox fan...
The only way God stops the reprobate is by declining to give them an undeserved gift that He promises to no one. It's a matter of choice whether one wants to consider that "preventing" or not, or whether God "owes" this gift to everyone. I perceive that Apostolics see some sort of debt owed by God to man, since you all blame God for sin if God is in control, or if man is not as "free" as you would like him to be.
That's because you believe things such as Prov 16:4. Septuagint doesn't have that verse (or 1, 3, or 6). We don't have the same scriptures and we don't believe the same thing.
I suppose that is all true. I certainly believe in scriptures like Prov. 16:4. Does the NAB really omit all of those verses? I've never heard that before.
The Bible is clear about the eleven. You don't like what it says, so you say it's not true.
Jesus certainly DID say it to the eleven, but it is a "strangulatingly" forced interpretation to say that it was meant for them ONLY, AND ONLY their successors. That message isn't there at all. That message is only to consolidate power within the elites, which is what is done. The far more reasonable interpretation would be that God wanted His message to be heard by the masses. Jesus demonstrated this in His ministry. So it makes much more sense that Jesus meant for disciples to make other disciples, who in turn would make other disciples. But your system prohibits this. If you all are not clergy, I don't know how you even get away with posting to us at all on FR. :)
FK: "... you say that God wants all to be saved."
I don't; the NT does, but you don't like that so you "give" it to me.
In that case I take it back with full apologies. :) I'm pretty sure that is the official position of the Latin Church, and was not sure about the Orthodox Church.
FK: "Many more would be reached and saved if the attitude was that Jesus was speaking to the laity as well."
Conjecture.
BALONEY! :) It's simple mathematics. That is, unless you suppose that God treads over top of the sinning Christians who DO share their faiths and cancels their testimonies out. I don't think you would tell me that.
The disciples didn't fully grasp Christ's role until after He left.
I have no problem with that at all, but what I do have a problem with is any idea, as it appears you are suggesting, that Jesus ACTIVELY AFFIRMED any false notions or beliefs by those closest to Him, while He was here. That has Jesus going out of His way to steer them down the wrong path.
Jesus specifically told the disciples not to go to Samaria and where Gentiles live. He also stated that He was sent only for the lost sheep of Israel, and in Math 18:17 He makes it clear that the Gentles are not the same as the Jews.
By BIRTH, they aren't the same as the Jews. If Jesus was sent only to Jews by birth, then God made an obvious mistake. I cannot share that view. We believe the Reformed God does not make mistakes. Are you telling me that the Apostolic God does?
Amen and amen.
And thus we see that the RCC and EO believe in an elite hierarchy of believers rather than a priesthood of all believers
I would venture to say that it is the Reformed who believe in the "elite," the "chosen" (elect). This is a deformation of what the "elect" mean. God chooses individuals and even groups of individuals to carry the burden of righteousness, not of self-righteousness. There is a big difference.
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." -- 1 Peter 2:24-25
(Re 1 Pet 2:24-25) Dr E: Our only Bishop.
The word episkopos (overseer, bishop) is mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, Dr. E. Obviously, your view is extra-biblical because the Apostles talk about more than one bishop they recognize.
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you bishops, to feed the church of God." [Acts 20:28]
"Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:" [Philippians 1:1]
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach" [1 Timothy 3:2]
"For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God"[Titus 1:7]
It really is a pity that Rome and the EO deny the work of the Holy Spirit in each individual life of those who are members of Christ's flock.
It's a pitty the Reformed insist that God is the creator of evil as well as good. That, in itself, is denying the work of the Holy Spirit.
Your middlemen are just that -- stumbling-blocks...(John 17:17-20)
Do you intentionally discard the context of the chapters from which you pull your verses, or is it your random verse generator that does all the work? John 17, 13-21 is about the disciples.
Thus in verse 15 Jesus says "I have given them Your word" and then He sent them, verse 15 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world." The apostles (the sent), not your crowds of self-styled preachers and Bible-thumpers. It is through their word that others shall believe, and it is for those that Jesus prays as well, in verse 20, "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their (apostolic) word."
Clearly, Jesus establishes that faith in Jesus comes through their word, that they (the sent, the apostles) are the conduit to Christ's Church. The only stumbling blocks are self-styled, self-sent, self-appointed men and women of man-made "churches" who presume "authority" they were never given.
Based on what? Your own interpretation? Is that not also an interpretation of (wo)men? What give you the authority to do that? It's not the Bible, for sure.
I compare God's word to what the EO and RCC teach and I realize these two man-made institutions err when compared to Scripture.
You mean you interpret what you read to what the EO and RCC teach? You are also wrapping yourself into a self-contradiction by that. For, it was this "Institution" that had to correctly interpret and spiritually recognize the word of God in order to set it aside for the canon!
The other problem is that your side is using the "canon" of one man, Martin Luther, who rejected the canon of the whole Church. Protestantism defines a man-made institution through which any man's whim can be justified through personal interpretation of the Bible, slavery being one of them.
As Christ says in John 17:20, He includes all those who believe on His name
Yes, through the word of the sent, through apostolic teaching. Read verses 13-21.
Why the EO and RCC feel compelled to exclude believers from Christ's prayer of inclusion, and instead invest some man-made magisterium with God's grace is unfathomable and anti-Scriptural
They don't. That is your erroneous impression, which is extra-scriptural. It was Christ Himself who commissioned individuals to teach so that others may believe in Him, through their word. He was speaking about His disciples. And His disciples passe don the office commissioned to them by the Lord to those of their choosing, in succession to this day.
They go to church to praise God because Christ told us to gather with like-minded believers and sustain each other through His word.
Really? Did He also say it was to be on a Sunday?
And Protestants do not nullify the position of a pastor as one who leads Christ's congregation in worship.
Why not? Where does it say that the congregation is to be led by a pastor? Where does it say that one cannot stop his daily activities and, like the tax collector in a synagogue, with his eyes down, simply say "Lord forgive me, a sinner?"
They simply do not invest their pastors with the blasphemous title of "another Christ," and most EOs would heartily agree with Protestants on this one. You, OTOH, seem to side with Rome more often than even your own church instructs.
Alter Christus is an unfortunate construct, and to some extent it reflects the deep divide between our (Orthodox) and Latin mindsets. We do not see a priest as "another Christ," but as an icon, a representation of Christ. Just as the NT says a bishop should be beyond reproach and the same for a deacon, a priest should be as Christ-like as humanly possible.
You beat me to it! :)
Why? If wmfights can say (post 5790) that "The hierarchy of the EO and RCC are no different than the scribes of Jesus' day" why is it anathema to say that, in my opinion, the Reformed who believe that God makes devil children is anything but a cult?
“I would venture to say that it is the Reformed who believe in the “elite,” the “chosen” (elect). This is a deformation of what the “elect” mean. God chooses individuals and even groups of individuals to carry the burden of righteousness, not of self-righteousness. There is a big difference.”
kosta - please advise where you find a Biblical reference that God chooses groups to carry “the burden of righteousness”. Also, why do you call Christ’s imputed righteousness a burden? The Lord Himself says His burden is light - and I think the burden would be the reaction of the worldlings to Him and us. His righteousness is not a burden, but a cause for rejoicing, in my book.
Sorry, but the Bible is the book I’ll be using to find truth. I highly recommend it. If you don’t believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life you are lost. Infant baptism, Mary nor the eucharist is salvific. If you believe they are, you are lost. God IS love, but He is also a God of Justice and He WILL pour out His cup of wrath on an unbelieving world. I fear too many will lose their salvation based on their works and baptism, Mary and the eucharist. How sad is that.
Indeed. Blessings to you, Dr. E.
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