Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Wonderful reply, Dr. E. You are so right on!
Umm, you may want to reconsider.
A seal in Biblical times is a mark or sign. It is not a lock. http://sacred-texts.com/bib/ebd/ebd325.htm says that:
Your passage supports my case. For example: "When God is said to have sealed the Redeemer, the meaning is, that he has attested his divine mission (Joh 6:27). Circumcision is a seal, an attestation of the covenant (Rom 4:11). Believers are sealed with the Spirit, as God’s mark put upon them (Eph 1:13; Eph 4:30)." The Seal is God's signature, His attestation, His notice to the world of ownership. I do not understand why you would think those are worthless or breakable. Man would have to be more powerful than God to break God's seal.
Note the term “trials”. A trial is a test in which one passes or fails. God offers His gift of salvation to all. If you are proved genuine, then you receive His gift. If you fail you don’t. God’s gifts are irrevocable. Our acceptance of them isn’t.
If one has to pass a test to receive a gift, then it is not a FREE gift, it is a conditional gift. The Bible speaks of salvation being a free gift. From Got Questions? :
However, when it comes to the matter of our salvation, the New Testament writers use different Greek words—words that emphasize the gracious and absolutely free quality of the gift. Here are the two words most commonly used for the gift of salvation:
1) Dorea, meaning “a free gift.” This word lays particular stress on the gratuitous nature of the gift—it is something given above and beyond what is expected or deserved. Every New Testament occurrence of this word is related to a spiritual gift from God. It is what Jesus offers to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:10). It is called the “free gift” in Romans 5:15. It is the “unspeakable [or indescribable] gift” in 2 Corinthians 9:15. This gracious gift is identified as the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38; 8:30; and 11:17.
The adverb form of this word is dorean, translated “freely” in Matthew 10:8; 2 Corinthians 11:7; Revelation 21:6; 22:17. In Romans 3:24, immediately following God’s pronouncement of our guilt, we have this use of dorean: “Being justified FREELY by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” The gift of salvation is free, and the motive for the gift is nothing more than the grace of the Giver.
2) Charisma, meaning “a gift of grace.” This word is used to define salvation in Romans 5:15-16. Also, in Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT [charisma] of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” This same word is used in conjunction with the gifts of the Spirit received after salvation (Romans 12:6; 1 Timothy 4:14; 2 Timothy 1:6; 1 Peter 4:10).
Obviously, if something is a “gift of grace,” it cannot be earned. To work for something is to deserve it, and that would produce an obligation—a gift of debt, as it were. That is why works destroy grace (Romans 4:1-5; 11:5-6).
So we can see that free gifts are not earned by passing trials.
The stiff necked Reformed who believe that they can do no wrong since they are led by the Holy Spirit do not demonstrate repentance; they demonstrate its opposite.
Stiff-necked, maybe. But believing that we can do no wrong, never. We believe that God is all powerful, sovereign, and is good for His word. We also believe that salvation is not earned by collecting enough "God-points".
FK: ***We CAN know about ourselves, but that is it.***
How do you know? I can speak to my blood type and demonstrate my heart rate and show my blood pressure. That is knowledge. I believe and hope that I will be saved.
But your hope appears to have all the strength of "I hope we have nice weather this weekend". Reformed "hope" is an expectation that God's promises will be kept. If the one true God is the same one described in the Bible, then it is a surety. The Bible instructs us to take stock of ourselves, so that means it is possible. Therefore, a person can know if he has true faith or not. If he does have true faith then he is saved.
The Judgment occurs after death; therefore my salvation cannot be assured now since I am still alive as I post these words.
Once again, salvation is not awarded based on points earned during life. I know that any Catholic would agree with those words, but at the same time you describe exactly that system for Judgment.
Interesting. The good Reformed Dr. E. posted some months back that she knew that her children were all saved with the same knowledge that she had about her own salvation.
She was speaking of a reasonable presumption based on scripture, not a certainty. I have seen Dr. E. say many times that only the individual and God can know for certain the salvation status of an individual.
[Continued on next post]
Let us concentrate on you and me as individuals. Our church calls for volunteers for the soup kitchen that Friday night. Does it matter in a Reformed way if you or I serve the poor? It most certainly does according to original Christian and current Catholic belief.
Yes, it matters if we serve the poor because that is an obedience to God. God called us to do such things and it is in accordance with His will. So it matters. One could also say that it is a part of perseverance, so it matters that way too. However, it does not bring us any closer to salvation in a similar way that running around the bases brings one no closer to having just hit a home run.
FK, it happens every day on Earth in every city and in every jurisdiction. I spent 10 glorious years in Dearborn, Michigan, which borders on two sides with Detroit. Every day innocents were killed and raped and beaten and mugged. I agree that it takes great sin; I disagree that it is remarkable now (or then) to kill an innocent man (remember that you brought up the term innocent MAN).
I live right across the river from East St. Louis, which makes Detroit look like Pleasantville. :) In any event, the point of my statement was to illustrate that the sin necessary for the crucifixion was no accident. God left the necessary players to their own devices to insure that it would happen.
FK: ***So, how did God guarantee that His will would be accomplished through Christ dying on the cross? He withdrew from the key players who were necessary, such as Judas, Pilate, Caiaphus, Herod, the lost Jews, the Romans, and others.***
Not so fast, my friend. According to Reformed theology, God was never with them since they were obviously of the unelect and were all doomed to hell, right? So how could He withdraw from them?
Yes, God was never with them, but that doesn't mean that God leaves all the unelect at "zero". Just as God gives the rain to all men, He also gives some protection to all men who are totally depraved (all of us at birth). Otherwise, we'd all be raving murderers etc. And whatever that level of protection is, is what allows no man to have an excuse.
Are you saying that God withdraws from people in stages or different amounts? What in Calvin are you talking about? I thought that the Reformed unelect were deprived completely of God (or rather never had Him) and that the elect were full of Him. This is getting rather interesting.
YES, it's in the Bible. :) For example:
Rom 1:26-32 : 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts . Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Since we know that God does not author sin, we know that He did not hit them with a "gay beam". :) He withdrew from these lost people and they started doing things that not all lost people do. We all know lost people who do not look like this. So, the "T" in TULIP does NOT equal full satanic evil. We don't see that in our world. However, if God does fully turn His back, then we DO see that result.
The Reformed God’s love for the elect must only be exceeded by His hate for the unelect.
That can't be right since we all start out unsaved. God's love overcomes that and some are saved. If we started out saved, and then hatred overcame THAT, then you would be right.
God waited until conditions were right before He sent the flood. He waited until conditions were right to create the tongues at the Tower of Babel. He parted the Red Sea at the right moment. He stopped the Earth from spinning until the Israelites won. He sent His Son to be crucified when the conditions were right. Not chance.
If men were behind the conditions, then you really ARE saying it was by chance. Your answer has God being a reactor, as opposed to an actor. That has man in control, and all things are by random chance. You have God coming in later to clean up the mess.
I never said God "needed" anything. It was a totally made up and silly example to show that God can use ANYTHING that He has allowed in this world to accomplish His goodness.
There would not be a mugging in the first place if there was no nudie bar. That would be God's will!
Is God powerful enough to get rid of it if that's what He wanted? Why would you say He doesn't? That is, you just told me that man overrides God's will, since there ARE nudie bars (as I'm told). Is that God's choice under the way you see things?
Cherry-picking and ignoring the scripture. Jesus specifically told the disciples that whatever they bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever they forgive it shall be forgiven in heaven as well. Their successors, by their choice, fill the same office. That's how the Church operated in the first century, and this is how it operates to this day.
The hierarchy of the EO and RCC are no different than the scribes of Jesus' day
You are entitled to your opinion. I don't think the Reformed are even Christians (more like "Paulians"). They are a cult that believes God makes little demons and give them to unlucky parents.
What is the Key to the Kingdom?
The key is the authority to bind and losen.
wmfights: To help those that kept it locked up for so many years learn what's actually in it
Aaaaw, it's that old rag again. Well, in the East we could read the Bible because we had it written in our language and so did the Greeks and the Syriacs, and the Copts, etc.
The Church collected the canon by interpreting what was canon-material. Every Tom, Dick and Harriette do not have that authority because it wasn't given to them.
Hence the Protestant heresy that the Bible "explains" itself to every dimwit who can read it, and thre claim that, being "perspicuous," the Bible can be understood even by children.
What seal was that, and where is it in scripture? God did not seal them against sin.
How do you know that God wants you to witness? The Great Commission was given to the eleven. And no one else.
Scripture is clear. Do you suppose that God gives us a whole big list of good things He wants us to do, but preaching HIS WORD is not on that list? Come on. I continue to love the irony of Apostolics saying on the one have that God loves all people and wants all people to be saved, yet in the same breath preaching that Christianity is an EXCLUSIVE faith that should only be shared by the tiniest minority of elites in the faith. That's hilarious. :)
The thing you fail to understand is that anyone who interprets the bible, especially if they have no authority, is a doctrine of men!
You claim the Holy Spirit, but deny that the Church has it. Based on what? The Holy Spirit you can't prove? The Church interpreted the scrolls and selected those that are inspired and made a canon. Yet you deny that the Church can interpret anything.
Where two or more such people are gathered in His name there is Christ's church on earth
Christ was speaking to His disciples specifically and not to everyone. It's a plain as it gets. It says so in the very FIRST verse! Yet you deny it. Christ did not say "that's where the Church is." In fact, a few verses before that He says to take the matter to the Church! But one has to read everything, in context, to understand the verse properly.
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." -- John 14:26
Good, then we don't need the Bible or preaching! Thank you for bringing this up.
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you...-- 1 John 2:27
There you go! No need for preachers! What are all the Protestant pastors going to do for a living? Get a real job? No, they have convinced everyone that although the Bible is "perspicuous" there is a need to "explain" that which the HS will teach the believers (say Apostle John). Talk about vacating the office of the Holy Spirit! Talk of finding a thorn in your neighbor's eye!
Some men are taught by the Holy Spirit, and those men meet in a church to worship God in truth
But they don't have to go to church to praise God. Nor do they need to go to church to hear men talk to them about things the HS already taught them. And if they are not of the "elect" kind what good will that do?
I agree with Einstein, a lot if is just plain childish.
Other men forsake the graciousness of God and attempt to assign the work of the Holy Spirit to a body of fallible men to dole out as they see fit
I hear fallible preachers talking about the word of God over the radio every day interpreting it as they see fit.
The seal doens't prevent anhyone from sinning. The baptized still sin! As far as Adam and Eve are concerned, they were under Grace. When we are baptized, we are restored to grace and, just as Adam and Eve could fall away, so can we.
Scripture is clear. Do you suppose that God gives us a whole big list of good things He wants us to do, but preaching HIS WORD is not on that list?
Yes it is. There were eleven and He spoke only to them. It applies to their successors, by their choice.
Good Dr. E brought up two verses (John 14:26, 2:27) which couldn't be clearer that preaching and teaching is not necessary for the believers. The HS does all the work of teaching and preaching.
Yes, Christ did give us a list of things to follow and do, in Beatitudes for example, and Matthew 5 is full of them. He even told us how we should pray, how we should treat our enemies, never return evil for evil, etc. In fact, the Beatitudes tell us what is required to get into heaven and there is not a trace of any faith mentioned in them! (Paul didn't invent that yet)
Yeah, we should be like Christ in our hearts, pure, and we shall see God. Is your heart pure?
I continue to love the irony of Apostolics saying on the one have that God loves all people and wants all people to be saved, yet in the same breath preaching that Christianity is an EXCLUSIVE faith that should only be shared by the tiniest minority of elites in the faith
You do not even see that you are ridiculing the Reformed cult with these words. Nothing could be a bigger irony than to preach that God predestined everyone and nothing can be done to change that and yet to preach the Bible to everyone, falsely giving hope to those preordained to hell.
And speaking of minority elites, what are the "elect" if not the minority elite who get a limo ride to heaven just because. Talk about exclusive faith!
That can't be right since we all start out unsaved
If you are predestined to be saved, you are as good as saved (I believe those are your words), so that your statement above is patently false, that is—if you consider yourself Reformed.
If you are saved from before the foundation of the world, then we all don't start unsaved.
FK: Your passage supports my case. For example: "When God is said to have sealed the Redeemer, the meaning is, that he has attested his divine mission (Joh 6:27). Circumcision is a seal, an attestation of the covenant (Rom 4:11).
Circumcision is a mark. It could just as well be cutting off your nose. It's a pagan custom of marking a tribe.
And thus we see that the RCC and EO believe in an elite hierarchy of believers rather than a priesthood of all believers as a community who worships God in truth and love (1 Peter 2).
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." -- 1 Peter 2:24-25"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Our only Bishop.
It really is a pity that Rome and the EO deny the work of the Holy Spirit in each individual life of those who are members of Christ's flock.
Your middlemen are just that -- stumbling-blocks.
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" -- John 17:17-20"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Amen, good doctor!
With much thanks to only effective priest.
Of course the church has the Holy Spirit, by virtue of the fact that the Holy Spirit indwells Christ's flock and Christ's flock makes up His church on earth. "And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Yet you deny that the Church can interpret anything.
I deny many of the things the EO and RCC interpret. And that's not difficult. It's fairly simply, really, because I compare God's word to what the EO and RCC teach and I realize these two man-made institutions err when compared to Scripture.
Christ was speaking to His disciples specifically and not to everyone. It's a plain as it gets.
As Christ says in John 17:20, He includes all those who believe on His name. Why the EO and RCC feel compelled to exclude believers from Christ's prayer of inclusion, and instead invest some man-made magisterium with God's grace is unfathomable and anti-Scriptural.
But they don't have to go to church to praise God.
They go to church to praise God because Christ told us to gather with like-minded believers and sustain each other through His word.
And Protestants do not nullify the position of a pastor as one who leads Christ's congregation in worship. They simply do not invest their pastors with the blasphemous title of "another Christ," and most EOs would heartily agree with Protestants on this one. You, OTOH, seem to side with Rome more often than even your own church instructs.
I hear fallible preachers talking about the word of God over the radio every day interpreting it as they see fit.
Yep. So do I. And yet that has nothing to do with the fact that God does give the Holy Spirit to whom He will in order to guide that person's understanding of Scripture wherein he may learn of his salvation by Christ alone, if God so wills.
Therefore, illuminated by His power, we believe neither by our own nor by anyone else's judgment that Scripture is from God; but above human judgment we affirm with utter certainty (just as if we were gazing upon the majesty of God Himself) that is has flowed to us from the very mouth of God by the ministry of men." -- John Calvin, "Institutes of the Christian Religion," Book I, Chapter 7."Let this point therefore stand: that those whom the Holy Spirit has inwardly taught truly rest upon Scripture, and that Scripture indeed is self-authenticated; hence, it is not right to subject it to proof and reasoning. And the certainty it deserves with us, it attains by the testimony of the Spirit. For even if it wins reverence for itself by its own majesty, it seriously affects us only when it is sealed upon our hearts through the Spirit.
lol. More double-speak.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified
The "Elect" are nothing other than an elite hierarchy.
Are you actually saying that nudie bars are the will of God,FK? Dear Lord!
God does not Will evil to accomplish a good FK! It seems to me that you're confusing what God ALLOWS must somehow be attached to God's Will.
If God willed evil, than He would be the cause of the fall of lucifer
FK-””God can use ANYTHING that He has allowed in this world to accomplish His goodness.””
Of course,but the key word is “ALLOWED”
The meaning of the "elect" of God is explained to us in Scripture. Men do not "elect" themselves. It is "God who justifies the ungodly" and it is God who has named His family "from before the foundation of the world" and redeemed them by the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
"For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine ELECT, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me." -- Isaiah 45:4
"And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine ELECT shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there... They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine ELECT shall long enjoy the work of their hands." -- Isaiah 65:9,22 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine ELECT, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." -- Isaiah 42:1
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very ELECT... And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." -- Matthew 24:22,24,31
"And shall not God avenge his own ELECT, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?" -- Luke 18:7"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the ELECT'S sake those days shall be shortened...
"Put on therefore, as the ELECT of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering" -- Colossians 3:12 "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's ELECT, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness" -- Titus 1:1 "ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." -- 1 Peter 1:2 "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's ELECT? It is God that justifieth." -- Romans 8:33
Are you a member of God's elect?
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