Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

email from Randall Easter | 25 January 2008 | Randall Easter

[Manfred the Wonder Dawg]

January 25, 2008

ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.

My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.

I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.

It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.

I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.

Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."

[annalex]

In 5253 I outlined the concept of possibility of salvation of the unbaptized very briefly simply in order to point out that original sin and the position of the unbaptized are not catholic doctrines in a contradiction, as Harley seemed to imply.

Indeed any salvation is not only through the mercy of Christ, but also through communion with the Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation for anyone. Anyone who is saved, dies Orthodox Catholic.

You are correct, Harley, that once Christ is not merely not known but knowingly rejected, then the hope vanishes altogether.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "Well, actually we DO have to take CLEs (unless we have an exemption) in order to keep our licenses ............... There is a reasonable comparison to salvation here. The difference is in who is in charge of getting those credits turned in on time."

Not in your book, FK. :) In the Reformed theology the CLEs mean nothing! You get a "certificate" of salvation at the beginning, and from there on nothing you do or don't do will cause you to lose it.

Why is it that for your side nothing in the universe has any meaning unless it is directly tied to progressing one's salvation? It sure sounds to me like the only reason you would ever do a good deed is that you knew that it would have the effect of earning you more salvation points. But to us it is quite the contrary. While salvation is assured because of the finished work of Christ, obeying Him still does mean something good. It means pleasing Him. With my new heart I want to please God, even though I will be no more saved because of it. Does that sound so ridiculous to you all? :)

[Forest Keeper]

The purpose of the fast is to control your passions, to be able to say no to evil or to things that might lead you to evil. It is part of the process we call theosis. The food consumed during fasts is bland and not something you will eat with passion, or tend to overeat. You should have one large meal a day and never eat until satiety.

Thanks very much, Kosta, for all the info on Orthodox fasting. I was just thinking that there must be some small number of Orthodox who by choice happen to be vegans. I was wondering if they are just sort of "lucky" with this, :) or if the right thing for them to do is to modify their diets to remove something they really like, or something like that. For me to give up animal products would be a big deal, so presumably I would get the full benefit. So, for vegans, I was wondering if they are just considered to be in a constant state of fasting, or .......

You touch on this later in the post when you note that "passion food" for one is repulsive to another. I just didn't know if the Church had put forth enough of a thinking that an answer could be inferred.

I guess you could say that fasts are like self-testing. It's like a diabetic pricking his finger to check his blood sugar. It's somewhat painful but it is necessary to know where you are.

That's a good observation and a good way to look at it.

[Forest Keeper]

It's not the law, but the nature of God that prevents Him from murdering children, just as His nature prevents Him from lying, or sinning.

Firstly, what is your basis for saying it is against God's nature to take human life? The Bible is clear and says just the opposite.

Secondly, you assume that the ending of a physical life is always not in the best interest of that person, hence you say "murder" is something God would never do. I totally disagree. If a young person had a terminal illness, and was in great pain, would you say God can't take that life earlier rather than later because it would be against His nature? Come on. :) In addition, you are also artificially restricting the Potter from what He may do with His creation:

Isa 45:9-11 : 9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'He has no hands'? 10 Woe to him who says to his father, 'What have you begotten?' or to his mother, 'What have you brought to birth?' 11 "This is what the Lord says — the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?

It sounds like someone around here is giving God orders about what He is allowed to do with the work of His hands. But I won't name names. :)

FK: "He can do whatever He wants with us within all bounds of morality."

God is Virtue, and God doesn't change. So at no time is God a vice. As Virtue, what He does with us is always virtuous.

That's all true, but what authority says it is vice for God to end a physical life? There are rules for US, but we are not the Creator, and God makes that clear for us in scripture. For God and Christians, the time we spend on earth is inconsequential compared to the time we spend in eternity.

Then the tests are unnecessary, and temptations are tortures.

They are necessary to the extent that God wants them. They just don't determine salvation. It's also necessary that we eat food, but that doesn't determine salvation either. God didn't have to build us to need food, He just wanted it that way.

FK: "Another point is what we ultimately take out of the experience [of testing]."

What purpose does that have vis-avis your predetermined salvation? None. You are already certain of your salvation and it makes no difference what you do or don't do.

That's correct for salvation IF we accept that God is in control and will not lose any of His sheep by allowing them to forfeit their salvation through deeds. Reformers hold this view. However, it is not correct for the quality of lives we have while here on earth. God wants the best for all of His children, and has apparently determined that testing is a net gain on our earthly experience.

FK: "I can think of many temptations I have succumbed to that now are an anchor of strength for the experience."

I agree, but what does that anchor of strength do as for your salvation is concerned?

The short answer is nothing, which is probably what you would expect me to say. I usually do give that answer, but here I will also note that another way of looking at it is to say that the anchor of strength will lead to a better lived life (more Christian), and that is perseverance. Perseverance is a component of salvation. I don't really look at it that way, since I see perseverance and salvation as "one thing", but it is valid nonetheless. We don't worry about perseverance in terms of doing "enough" since it is just as (pre-)assured as salvation is.

So, if you are just in God's eyes, why does it matter to you if you don't think you are; doesn't God take precedence?

That's right, it doesn't ultimately matter because God does take precedence. I'm sure there are many many people in Heaven right now who were not sure of salvation during life. I suppose the vast majority of Apostolics in Heaven would be good examples. :) I happen to think, though, that I am a stronger Christian, and thus more useful to God, because I have assurance. I can witness with more confidence than I otherwise would.

[aruanan]

Anyone who is saved, dies Orthodox Catholic.

So Adam and Eve (presumably), Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elisha, the prophets, and even John the Baptist all died Orthodox Catholic?

[Forest Keeper]

Your theology suggests that [Mary] had no will of her own. Even if she did say "Yes Sir," as you read it, it was still her decision. Otherwise what happened to her was rape. It seems, I am afraid, the Reformed theology would find that agreeable.

Well, then I suppose you would also consider the Immaculate Conception to be rape, perhaps double rape. (Was Anna ever asked? :) I suggest that Latins and Reformers would agree on the following words: "God pre-prepared Mary, without asking her, uniquely and apart from any other person, for her role in God's grand plan for the salvation of man." It sounds like the Orthodox would call this a supreme personal violation by God against a sovereign person.

[Just mythoughts]

Paul says there were some predestined to be chosen *before* the foundation of this world. The chosen are not necessarily those who most think they are.... So this brings forth the question what is it that those who *were* already chosen do, to receive this *election*? And when were the souls created, Moses does NOT describe the creation of the soul, what Moses says is that the dirt, clay, flesh being was NOT living until the 'breath of life' which means soul was breathed into that newly formed flesh being made in the image of the Heavenly Father. Also Adam first made, in the image of the Heavenly Father was placed into a deep sleep and a 'curve' removed from him to create woman.

[Forest Keeper]

Hi D-fendr, good to see you back around these parts. :)

I was taught that the key to proper formation of conscience is love. If conscience is lacking, love is lacking.

Yes, absolutely. No wonder Holy Spirit uses it as a conduit.

So conscience is from love, not Satan, we know this since even before Shakespeare ("Yet who knows not conscience is born of love?")

Sure, when we are weak we quash the conscience through rationalization or other means. I can go with that. I'm not sure how all the mechanics work (conscience from love, or love from conscience), but since I think that Holy Spirit uses conscience, I could understand why He wouldn't share it with anyone else. How do you see this?

1 Tim 1:5 : The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

[stfassisi]

""Thanks for the Catechism. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpret this to necessarily mean mortal sins at a minimum (confessing required, etc.). That would mean that mortal sin is inevitable from original sin, which is what I thought the Catholic position was.""

No! It does not mean mortal sins at minimum.It means ANY sin you are aware of upon reflection

Perhaps this is what you are looking for?(from the Catechism)

Why a Sacrament of Reconciliation after Baptism?

1425 "YOU were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."9 One must appreciate the magnitude of the gift God has given us in the sacraments of Christian initiation in order to grasp the degree to which sin is excluded for him who has "put on Christ."10 But the apostle John also says: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."11 and the Lord himself taught us to pray: "Forgive us our trespasses,"12 linking our forgiveness of one another's offenses to the forgiveness of our sins that God will grant us.

1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us "holy and without blemish," just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is "holy and without blemish."13 Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life.14 This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.15

9 ⇒ 1 Cor 6:11.

10 ⇒ Gal 3:27.

11 ⇒ 1 Jn 1:8[ETML:C/].

12 Cf. ⇒ Lk 11:4; ⇒ Mt 6:12.

13 ⇒ Eph 1:4; ⇒ 5:27.

14 Cf. Council of Trent (1546) DS 1515.

15 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1545; LG 40.

[stfassisi]

“”The Church does not teach that absence of believe in Jesus condemns to hell apart from anything else, either. Factors such as obedience to natural law in invincible ignorance of the teaching of the Church offer a hope of salvation to non-Christians.””

Very True, Dear Friend

The Gospel doesn't say that a person who never knew Jesus will be rejected. Christ refers to those who disbelieve Him, such as the Pharisees - when He speaks in John 3, for example. In Romans 2, Paul says that ALL men, even the Gentiles, have a law written on their heart. The Catechism details the “natural law” pretty well.

Basically, God has written onto our hearts the Law of Love. Even a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ can “know” this law. If a person loves, He abides in Christ.

We know that we can do nothing good without Christ abiding within us. Thus, when a person who has never heard of Christ can listen to that divine natural law printed inside of us - and the Holy Spirit blows where He will. Thus, a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ CAN be saved - because they are not specifically rejecting Him - and they are following His Law of Love - which is the summary of the Commandments, says James.

The Catechism refers to the Muslims - some have not heard the truth of the Gospel, so they cannot reject it. They have been presented a scare crow by their mullahs, so they are considered invincibly ignorant (as the Catechism calls them and other such people). A person will not go to hell if he is invincibly ignorant and loves others.Some Muslims in countries like Iran and others don't know Jesus Christ and the Gospel. They haven't been presented it. So how can they reject it? They only reject a scare crow, much like some anti-Catholic friends who don't know Catholicism.

Those who love know God!

From the Catechism...

The Church and non-Christians

839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 “the first to hear the Word of God.”327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.”330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”338

325 LG 16.
326 Cf. NA 4.
327 Roman Missal, Good Friday 13:General Intercessions,VI.
328 Rom 9:4-5.
329 Rom 11:29.
330 LG 16; cf. NA 3.
331 NA 1.
332 LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53.
333 LG 16; cf. Rom 1:21, 25.
334 St. Augustine, Serm. 96,7,9:PL 38,588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18 118:PL 16,297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21.
335 Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21:PL 3,1169; De unit.:PL 4,509-536.
336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
337 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
338 AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.

[stfassisi]

Oops

I forgot to add the rest of #842 thru #845

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "God predestines everything that is a part of His plan. In some cases, that has included sin. God does not approve of sin as a general principle."

That's like saying "I hate sin, but sometimes it comes in handy...I don't like to steal, but I send my kids to steal for me." How virtuous is that? We don't believe in the same God.

While I agree that we may well believe in different Gods, I disagree that your above is like what I said. The question is whether God ever uses sin to accomplish what He wants. If not, then God's role on earth is nothing more than to minister to believers. Everything else that happens is by chance, random luck.

If God influenced any event or any outcome of almost any activity of any non-believer, then it would involve sin to some degree. Sin is THAT prevalent in this world. So, if you believe that does not happen, then your God is even weaker than I thought. :) That God would basically be leaving His creation to its own devices and He would clean up the mess later, not caring what that mess was.

I just can't get over the fact that you believe that the meaning of the crucifixion is that the Romans USED Jesus to instill fear among the people (with the salvation thing being a lucky byproduct), instead of Jesus USING the Romans to save His elect. But, since it involved sin I guess your rule for God is hands off. It must have been random chance and we got lucky.

Usually, the response is that it wasn't luck because God foresaw it, but that's a non-answer. If you tie God's hands behind His back, then whether He foresees anything or not, it is still just luck and in the control of man.

Kosta: Was it not the purpose of the reformed God's creation of Adam and Eve that they sin?

FK: No, none on my side have ever said that. Only your side says that.

Kosta: Really? So, for what reason, if not God's desire to fulfill His "plan," did they fall, according to the reformed theology?

Well, you switched the subject. The purpose of God creating Adam and Eve was to bring glory unto Himself. He did that by using them to accomplish His plan. Part of that plan involved the Fall. Another part of that plan was to populate the earth, etc. But the Fall was not the PURPOSE for creating them.

God "needed" sin in order to be glorified?

No, but the manner of His glorification is really up to Him. He would know. I don't presume.

If God planted the tree in order for Eve in and for the serpent to deceive her, then God's intent was to make sure they sin and He succeeded. This is like me setting up conditions for my child to fail in school and then kick him out of the house for failing.

Well, if your kid was 28, then that might not be a bad idea. :) The point is that there is no way to discern the wholeness of God's plan for allowing sin into the world. We can't understand all of it, but He obviously DID it, so we can only surmise there was a good, Godly reason for it. There is no arguing that God set the conditions. It was man and woman who did not know the difference between good and evil VERSUS pure evil itself. I can't imagine who wins that contest. :)

Where is Christ in this?

Without the Fall, what need have we of Christ? That's where Christ is in this.

But you make it sound like the heart is not really yours. It's either devil's or God's but not yours.

What have I that does not belong to God? Even I am not my own, I was bought at a price.

[stfassisi]

FK_”God predestines everything that is a part of His plan. In some cases, that has included sin.””

Dear FK,As Kosta pointed out recently,this including sin as something planned by God is Manichean heresy that many protestant sects have adapted,especially calvinism.

Our Lord is a Redeemer of those who come to Him sinful and sorrowful with contrite hearts. He is NOT a sin planner for the elect.

Here is a few more From Blessed Saint Aquinas

That there is not any Sovereign Evil, acting as the Principle of All Evils

A sovereign evil should be without participation in any good, as that is the sovereign good which is wholly removed from evil. But there cannot be any evil wholly removed from good, since evil is founded on good (Chap. XI).
2. If anything is sovereignly evil, it must be evil by its very essence, as that is sovereignly good which is good by its essence. But evil has no essence (Chap. VII).

3. That which is a first principle is not caused by anything. But all evil is caused by good (Chap. X). There is therefore no evil first principle.

5. The incidental must be posterior to the ordinary. But evil happens only incidentally and beside the intention (Chap. IV). Therefore it is impossible for evil to be a first principle.

Hereby is excluded the error of the Manicheans.

That Evil is not a Nature or Essence*

Evil is nothing else than a privation of that which a thing is naturally apt to have and ought to have. But a privation is not an essence, but a negation in a substance.
5. Every essence is natural to some thing. If the essence ranks as a substance, it is the very nature of the thing. If it ranks as an accident, it must be caused by the principles of some substance, and thus will be natural to that substance, though perhaps not natural to some other substance. But what is in itself evil cannot be natural to anything: for the essence of evil is privation of that which is naturally apt to be in a thing and is due to it. Evil then, being a privation of what is natural, cannot be natural to anything. Hence whatever is naturally in a thing is good, and the want of it an evil. No essence then is in itself evil.*

6. Whatever has any essence is either itself a form or has a form,* for by form everything is assorted in some genus or species. But form, as such, has a character of goodness, being the principle of action and the end which every maker intends, and the actuality whereby every subject of form is perfected. Whatever therefore has any essence, as such, is good.

7. Being is divided into actuality and potentiality. Actuality, as such, is good, because everything is perfected by that whereby it actually is. Potentiality too is something good: for potentiality tends to actuality, and is proportionate to actuality, not contrary to it; and is of the same genus with actuality; and privation does not attach to it except accidentally.* Everything therefore that is, in whatsoever way it is, in so far as it is a being, is good.

8. All being, howsoever it be, is from God (B. II, Chap. VI). But God is perfect goodness (B. I, Chap. XLI). Since then evil cannot be the effect of goodness, it is impossible for any being, as being, to be evil.*

Hence it is said: God saw all things that he had made, and they were very good (Gen. i, 31): He made all things good in his own time (Eccles. iii, 11): Every creature of God is good (1 Tim. iv, 4).

[annalex]

I was speaking about salvation now, after the redemptive work of Christ has been done in the temporal realm. I don’t think the Church teaches definitively how the rescue of the righteous ancients from the Limbo happened with precision. Suffice is for us to know that at some point Christ converted them and baptised them into the Catholic Orthodox Church, but when did that occur in the temporal plane, I don’t know.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "Which of our sides believes in infused righteousness and which believes in imputed righteousness? There's your answer to that!"

The Orthodox teach neither to the best of my knowledge.

Then what is justification in Orthodoxy? Catholics and Reformers believe it involves an act of Christ, although different acts. :)

FK: "No, no. We honor Paul. We don't worship him, and we especially do not venerate him."

LOL! Do you even know what veneration means, FK? It is synonymous with honoring!

I should have put it in quotes. :) All I meant was to contrast how it is described and how it really seems to us when we see it in practice. :)

[kosta50]

Why is it that for your side nothing in the universe has any meaning unless it is directly tied to progressing one's salvation?

Because salvation is becoming Christ-like, and it's a process; the only truly meaningful process there is.

It sure sounds to me like the only reason you would ever do a good deed is that you knew that it would have the effect of earning you more salvation points

That would be all the wrong reasons for doing good things. The more Christ-like we are, the more Christ-like our deeds become too. Our good deeds, in the name of the Lord, are simple reflections of our likeness to Christ.

Of course, you could always have Pharisaical individuals who do "good" things ti impress others or to create an illusion of holiness.

It means pleasing Him. With my new heart I want to please God, even though I will be no more saved because of it. Does that sound so ridiculous to you all?

It does because Christ never said He would give us a new heart; He says He would would heal our hearts. You are confusing Ezekiel with Christ.

We can't please God. Just as you can do nothing to "earn" your way to heaven, there is nothing you can do to "please" God. The more Christ-like we become the more we reflect are restored in our original state of creation (in the image and likeness of God). Holy people do holy things because they are holy. Being holy is not a duty but a state.

[kosta50]

I was just thinking that there must be some small number of Orthodox who by choice happen to be vegans. I was wondering if they are just sort of "lucky" with this

No doubt. Just as there are some people who are healthy, well off and just plain "lucky" all their lives.

or if the right thing for them to do is to modify their diets to remove something they really like, or something like that

The purpose of fasting is to test yourself. If fasting is no effort ("easy") maybe you are not resisting evil. Fasting doesn't only deal with food. Fasting is abstinence of any kind. The spirit of the fast is important, and not the substance of it.

It is not a legalistic duty (although the Church make sit sound that way too much in my opinion), but a conscious effort to resists that which is evil or that which leads ot evil (and that includes greed, gluttony, covetousness, lust, etc). Through fasts we become painfully aware of those, especially during Lent.

For me to give up animal products would be a big deal, so presumably I would get the full benefit. So, for vegans, I was wondering if they are just considered to be in a constant state of fasting

You re putting too much emphasis on the food. I believe the Church does too because that's one of our passions. Sex is another. Materialism is yet another. If a vegan gorges himself during Lent, he is not fasting even though he is eating "fasting" food. He is scumming to temptations.

The spirit of fasting is to give it as much as you can, and everyone's measure is different. That's why St. John Chrysostom says in his 4th century Paschal Homily

Wherefore, enter ye all into the joy of your Lord;
Receive your reward,
Both the first, and likewise the second.
You rich and poor together, hold high festival!
You sober and you heedless, honour the day!
Rejoice today, both you who have fasted,
And you who have disregarded the fast...

I believe the Catholics are allowed to substitute fasting for work of charity during Lent.

When you say it would be a big deal to give up animal products that tells me you didn't even try. Of course, you may do charity from the bottom of your heart, so I don't judge. But what joy it is to give your favorite food up for the love of Christ! Twice a week is what we do year-round. Little by little, we learn to do without our favorite foods during longer fasts. It's not always easy, but we honestly try even if we honestly fail. The joy is in trying. :)

You touch on this later in the post when you note that "passion food" for one is repulsive to another. I just didn't know if the Church had put forth enough of a thinking that an answer could be inferred.

If you read fasting homilies you'd surely change your mind. The Church never emphasizes just the food but the spirit of fasting. Food is just an outward fruit of those who resist temptations. If you can give up your favorite foods, you can probably resist evil to the same extent if you try. Fasting is a personal thing. No one but you really knows if you are really fasting! It is your own meter of holiness, your own testing, by which you can measure your spiritual state. But it must be honest.

[kosta50]

Firstly, what is your basis for saying it is against God's nature to take human life? The Bible is clear and says just the opposite

The Old Testament says that. The OT is not the measure of Christ, but a foreshadowing of Him. The Jews also expected messiah to be a warrior king who wold smite his enemies the way the OT God does His. But God surprised them and left them dumbfounded: the King of Kings was anything but that! But His legacy lives on and shall live on forever.

Christ is our measure of God as we can understand Him. It's not second-guessing, but just as the Gospels describe Him. God is not Mercy that is merciless. God is not Love that doesn't love. God is not Virtue practicing vice. God is not Life causing death (sin).

Christ called us to follow Him and imitate Him. He didn't say "do as I say, not as I do." He wants us to do exactly as He does. He wants us to think as He does. He wants us to love as He does. He wants us to be(come) perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.

Christ doesn't say "It's mind over matter! I don't mind and you don't matter!" God forbid! He gave us minds and taught us virtue and forgiveness so that we know what is good, what is godly, what is our measure of His likeness.

Secondly, you assume that the ending of a physical life is always not in the best interest of that person, hence you say "murder" is something God would never do. I totally disagree

No, that's not what I am saying. Christ does not teach us that genocide is "godly" work! Again, we are called to imitate Christ. I really don't care what the Old Testament authros believed God was like. Obviously they had some idea that Chirst was coming but they didn't have a clear pictures of just what God would be like.

We Christians are followers of Christ Jesus and His teachings. Jesus defines what the OT says. That's why we are called Christians!. If the OT doesn't agree with Jesus, then the OT is either not fully revealed, or the revelation is not fully understood.

It sounds like someone around here is giving God orders about what He is allowed to do with the work of His hands. But I won't name names

That's silly, FK. :) The difference is that your God appears to be the "Zeus" of the OT and our God is Christ of the Gospels. It doesn't mean the OT is "wrong;" it simply reflects incomplete revelation of who God is.

That's all true, but what authority says it is vice for God to end a physical life?

We are talking biblical genocides. God didn't teach us justice and love and forgiveness in vain. He taught us all that in order for us to know what virtue is, so that we can recognize God's work and do the same in His name.

They are necessary to the extent that God wants them

But, you see, we call the Holy Spirit the Comforter, not a torturer. Perhaps in your religion God is both, but in those who follow and imitate Christ, God is only a source of comfort and love. He doesn't cause our illness and our sin. We do. He keeps rescuing us over and over even when we return nothing but evil.

They just don't determine salvation

The evil of the world is our test and our temptation. Depending on how much we succumb to it or how much we can resist it tells us how Christ-like we are. And those who are restored to their likeness of God (Christ) are saved. It's not a magic wand thing, FK. That's too pagan.

It's also necessary that we eat food, but that doesn't determine salvation either

Oh, spiritual food, the Holy Communion, helps sustain us, like the heavenly manna, in our struggle against evil. So, it is instrumental in our salvation. It's not enough to just take a "Jesus pill" and consider yourself saved.

I happen to think, though, that I am a stronger Christian, and thus more useful to God, because I have assurance. I can witness with more confidence than I otherwise would

So, you think that Kolo and stafassisi and other brilliant Orthodox and Catholic posters on these treads are wishy-washy, luke-warm, about their faith and witness in weakness and without confidence?

[kosta50]

FK: Which of our sides believes in infused righteousness and which believes in imputed righteousness? There's your answer to that!

Kosta: The Orthodox teach neither to the best of my knowledge.

FK: Then what is justification in Orthodoxy? Catholics and Reformers believe it involves an act of Christ, although different acts

This may help (from orthodoxinfo.com):

[T]he concept and term "justification" play almost no role in Orthodox theology, where "justification" is commonly not even distinguished from "sanctification," but both are seen as a united and inseparable part of the Christian's process of spiritual development. Certainly, its role is minor compared to the major position it occupies in Protestant thinking. Thus, the index to Timothy [now Bishop Kallistos] Ware's The Orthodox Church does not include the term, nor is it found in a number of Orthodox theological dictionaries...Once again, while the treatment is not "wrong" from an Orthodox standpoint, the very discussion and term sound strange to Orthodox ears. [Priest Seraphim Johnson, "Review of the Orthodox Study Bible"]

[kosta50]

Sorry, I meant to ping you to this post (5278).