Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
I agree, the passage does say that and it is the Catholic Sola Gratia teaching. So how, again, does Sola Fide follow from it?
No, consensus patrum means the whole Church. Local or particular churches and individual fathers can be within bounds of orthodoxy and differ on issues that are not dogmatic. Contrary to popular opinion, "orthodoxy" is not a narrow, rigid set of beliefs. Orthodoxy is a solid foundation on which the faith rests. The only restriction is that, in the final analysis, whatever we believe must not violate that foundation, namely the belief in the Holy Trinity, the dual nature of Christ in one Person, the belief in Resurrection, etc.
Since there was no dogma regarding the original sin, St. Augustine's teaching did not constitute "heresy" visa-a-vis the Church in the East, and the Church in the East could dismiss his teaching without making him a "heretic." Part of the Curch could disagree with him and still consider him a Saint in the Orthodox Church.
St. Gregory of Nyssa, one of the three giants, the Cappadocian Fathers, thaught (for a while at least) universal salvation (he used to be Origen's student), but later realized his error and stopped teaching that, otherwise he would have been excommunicated for that teaching because the consensus patrum rejects universal salvation.
Likewise, anyone who taught that Christ was a "lesser" God than the Father, as taught by Arius (Arian heresy) or professed hierarchichal trinity of the Godhead (Gnosticism), as taught by Origen, was given a chance to recant or be excommunicated because this clashes with the foundations of the orthodox faith.
This idea of some variance being allowed within the confines of orthodoxy is evident form the earliest days of the Church. Thus, Hippolytus, an early 3rd century Christian writer left us this regarding the use of epiklesis in the liturgy (my emphases):
The Church always allowed what the Greeks call theologoumenna (theological opinions), with the understanding that they must not include heterodox beliefs but rather remain within the confines of orthodox foundations of the faith as recognized by the whole Church (i.e. consensus patrum), not local councils.
Satan chose too.
God doesn’t set His heart on someone with the command, “This guy is going to love me, or else.”
Even the angels get to choose.
Your view of theology is dangerously flawed. God doesn’t tag people with ‘saved’ or ‘condemned’ before they leave the womb. He may have a plan for each one of us, but its just a plan.
God HAS the power to cut through all that and MAKE something happen. That’s his choice too.
No choice, no love.
I have been busy and away from FR myself as well,Dear Brother.
To answer your question.. No, I do not think it is possible to live a sinless life with the exception of Jesus and Mary(who was full of Grace given to her by God)
That said, I think it is very possible for someone to lead a life without committing grave sin,not venial sin
Harley-""Protestants believe that since the Holy Spirit resides in us, we don't try to avoid sin; rather the Spirit makes it repugnant That is not to say we don't sin ""
If you knowingly commit sin,it's because YOU DID NOT try and avoid the sin and your coscience was not rightly formed
The Formation of Conscience(from the Catechism)
1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. the education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.
1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. the education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.
1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord's Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55
54 Cf. ⇒ Ps 119:105.
55 Cf. DH 14.
.... The more a man struggles to do good, the more fear grows in him, until it shows him his slightest faults, those which he thought of as nothing while he was still in the darkness of ignorance. ....
.... The sign of perfect fear is the love of virtue and the fear of relapsing, since no one is unalterable.
Thanks for the quote. That sounds pretty compatible. Any desire to be virtuous or do good on our part is love for God.
"Just a plan?" God's plan for His creation, decreed from before the foundation of the world, is "just a plan?"
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure." -- Isaiah 46:10
God's plan is what is, one way or another.
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" -- Romans 9:20-21"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
No choice, no love.
1) Where does it say that in Scripture? Hallmark, yes. The Bible, no.
2) Fallen man will always "choose" unrighteousness unless and until God gives him a new heart, new eyes, new ears and a renewed mind in order for him to know and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
Read "Bondage of the Will" by Luther. Here's a short, abridged version online...
It will help you understand whose will is sovereign and whose will has been mercifully over-ridden by the gift of unmerited, unearned, free grace.
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13
Traditions of men.
No, just an excellent, truthful, Scripturally-faithful book by a man.
We must pray diligently for the world’s people.
To be precise, everyone is currently condemned to hell who does not believe on the Lord Jesus. If, under your soteriology, someone is sitting on the fence trying to decide, they are condemned to hell because, by definition, they do not believe in our Lord Jesus. It's difficult to say "..sin is condemnation to hell" but not part of original sin because everyone is a sinner and that is because of original sin.
It's all part of the same curse. That original sin curse said we would die. The wages of sin is death. The two are interconnected.
Unceasingly.
That would include groups like LDS or Jehova's Witnesses. Sorry.
Original sin and actual sin are, of course, connected, but should you care to examine the connection scripturally, you would discover that there is no warrant to say that original sin alone condemns to hell.
The Church does not teach that absence of believe in Jesus condemns to hell apart from anything else, either. Factors such as obedience to natural law in invincible ignorance of the teaching of the Church offer a hope of salvation to non-Christians.
There is no hope for those outside Christ.
Rom 1:21 Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
kosta-Wow, that's pretty bombastic! The Greeks who read the original in their language disagreed then and do so to this day.
I haven't had the time to read all the arguments out here but I believe FK touched upon the logic of original sin. If you were to take civilization throughout all of history, you cannot produce one person who history recorded as without sin except for Christ (we'll leave the discussion of Mary for another time). Statistically speaking, if original sin was left up to man, then 50% of mankind should be sinful and 50% should be pure. Yet not one can be produce who was without sin.
One thing is certain: the words in Rom 5:12 are sloppily wirtten and ambiguous enough to cause different opinions
On the contrary, I think they are perfectly clear and people just don't wish to acknowledge original sin. The reason is clear. They believe they are in control of their live able to make decisions. Let me ask you this, do you want to sin? Do you consciencely make a "free" choice to sin against God exercising your "free will"?
Your answer tells me you either didn't read it at all or you didn't understand it at all.
There was no redemption before Incarnation.
Your verses are completely off the mark, HD. They do not show that there is no hope outside of Christ.
God must give them a new heart and a new mind to walk in His wa
Christ says that He will heal our hearts, not give us new ones. He came to restore, not to re-create. You need to read the New Testament if you consider yourself a Christian. Is Ezekiel right and Christ is wrong?
It is nice to teach that non-believers can believe what they want and still get to heaven but that was not the belief of the early church
Then the early Church did not believe that with God everything is possible. I doubt that. Invincible ignorance is not a sin.
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