Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
Just sayin' ....
By way of contrast, in my tradition, knowledge is considered a good thing, and consequently we would not think that being kept from knowledge was a sign of God's favor.
But I see more and more how your tradition differs in its valuation of knowledge and reason. NO wonder conversation is so difficult!
God bless all y'all.
“In the ‘70’s “they” were saying ‘Q’ might not be a document at all, but a shared oral tradition.”
In the 70’s, if my recollection is correct, “Q” was James Bond’s boss and later became his bossess.
***I think it’s fear of freedom and of uncertainty. Things need to be black and white. “The Scriptures are inspired and they’re all we need and if you don’t agree it’s because God has forsaken you. Sorry about that.”
It’s very like Islam in the specific sense of the renunciation of reason and the fatalism — and the inability to argue as adults argue, with the assumption of a shared desire for truth. For them speech is to create an emotional reaction which, they hope, will control one’s thoughts,. This is what they say, in any event, and what they do. The reduplicative excerpts from Scripture are not to make a point but to give some kind of good feeling to their comrades and to glorify God.
And what better way to glorify God than to exhibit despite for His enemies, whom, of course, they would just fall down and love if only we’d drink their Koolaid.***
Well reasoned and entirely synchronous with their postings. I have noticed the fear and the black and white interpretation, even when it is demonstrably in error both to the Catholic Church’s interpretation as well as the Church Fathers’.
***Conversation requires a common ground. But common ground with us is a threat to them, something to be avoided. So no real conversation can happen, only harangues and abuse, which, of course, they deny, since they really cannot see, I guess, a difference between a question and an insult. When you question them they react angrily, and when they insult us, they protest that they are only questioning. And thus they protect themselves from having to think something they’ve never thought before.***
When one’s entire theological identity is based upon what one is NOT, then such tactics are easily understood. The Reformed could not stand, except in opposition to the Church, since they base so much of their identity upon it.
That was “M”. “Q” was the technofreak.
You will be sorely missed.
Perhaps I could take on the conversation with our separated brethren as a Lenten penance. It will be suitably arduous, I’m sure.
Vaya con Dios, my friend.
I think Mark 4:10-12 says it all.
***MB: I trust literate people who pride themselves in history and literacy amongst at least the priestly class in creating and maintaining reasonably accurate historical knowledge.
UC: Aren’t Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul literate enough for you or is it just something that they said????***
When they are not definitive, we must turn to other sources. In this case, the meticulate archives of the Jewish people themselves serve most masterfully. They know, and have kept the records, of what language they spoke, and when, and where. Their priestly class was, unlike 95 percent or better of the world, literate and prided itself on that literacy and the maintaining of the records of history.
Matthew 22:
37
He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38
This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39
The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
I guess that the Reformed don’t have to pay attention to the words of Jesus.
***The Reformed could not stand, except in opposition to the Church, since they base so much of their identity upon it.***
Of course that is true. It’s what the name refers to. If the Romanists Church repents then we can welcome back our wayward brothers and sisters back to true religon.
Semper Reformanda!
Wasn’t a question of love, it was a question of understanding.
I do love God, and I do love you, and pray for your understanding.
Of course, you may, and thank you. You read what I wrote correctly: we believe.
A proof is overwhelming evidence. It doesn't take much for a child to learn that hot oven is not something to touch.
As you said, there is no such train-stopping evidence when it comes to things biblical. It simply must be believed, for no reason whatsoever. If I were to follow my reason I wouldn't believe, certainly not based on evidence presented by some "official" God's moutpieces.
That's why quoting the Bible proves nothing. The Bible doesn't give you faith. The Bible is meaningful only to those who already believe. It clarifies and puts thing in perspective.
It doesn't make one "know" more than what he or she already believes. It doesn't provide the seal of authenticity for something that has already been authenticated in your heart.
Christians go to church to pray to and praise the Lord, to thank Him for His abundance of blessings and to ask Him to help us stay in His light.
We read from the Gospels as lessons of humility and love, of mercy and of acts that we should imitate in our daily lives.
We don't "proof text" the Bible for veracity to gain further "knowledge" of God so that we can become His mouthpieces. Our acts, how we live, will show that God is in our life more than words will. and they will carry the message louder than the words.
Let's just remember that those Christians who died in Roman pogroms probably could not quote a single verse, let alone have the whole Bible memorized. But, they believed, and probably more than the modern-day Pharisees do.
Then leave that Assembly that claims to be the keeper of all the secret mysteries and come join us Born Again Christians in the joy of being saved by Grace Alone through Faith Alone in Christ Alone.
The overwhelming evidence is there.
We know from non Christian sources that Jesus was Crucified. We have guards at the tomb who are not Christians and who could be severely punished for failing in their duty yet the tomb is empty. We have hundreds of witnesses. We have disciples who were transformed into roaring lions for GOD willing to suffer terrible persecution. The transformation of Paul. The spread of Christianity with no hierarchy, no state approval and periods of terrible persecution. All this is testimony to the actual events.
THE GOSPEL would have been quickly discredited if it weren't true. All this occurred before any hierarchy was created to tell anyone about it's truth.
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
******The Reformed could not stand, except in opposition to the Church, since they base so much of their identity upon it.***
Of course that is true. It’s what the name refers to.***
Thank you for the clarification.
If one stands for what one stands for, then one defines one’s self. If one stands for what one does not stand for, the one does not define one’s self.
And that is a description of the problem of the Protestant disintegration into thousands of sects. We stand upon what we believe.
***Wasn’t a question of love, it was a question of understanding.
I do love God, and I do love you, and pray for your understanding.***
I thank you for your prayers and your intentions, sir. And I return them as best as I know how.
We look upon the commandments as, well, commandments. It is something overriding that we must do. We don’t get to, well, not do them. I have been extremely irritated with some of the Reformed posts that appear to minimize the responsibility of the individual to do the things that Jesus expressly and in multiple repeated ways commands us to do. Commands, not suggests.
Maybe that is something that perpetuates the misunderstanding of this works-based salvation that we are accused of. We are not works based, but we are commanded to do.
***If one stands for what one stands for, then one defines one’s self. If one stands for what one does not stand for, the one does not define one’s self.***
That’s hokey, Mark. You can do better than that.
We stand for true religon, the apostalic doctrine.
Standing upon false belief is no virtue.
Thank you for you vote of confidence, but I must decline. You of all Reformed on this Forum wold know better than any other that most of the heresies that sprang up in the first millennium came from my side of the Church and that it was the fraternal Latin Church that helped us stay the course and return to our Orthodoxy.
I don't think the Latin side ever taught heresies comparable to those of some of our Eastern Patriarchs!
So, if anything, we owe our Latin brothers eternal gratitude, and the least we can do is extend a helping hand, if they ask, to help them to de-Protestantize their Church, and being tainted with Protestantism in manner more than belief does not even come close to ancient christological heresies of the East!
So, once we learned our lesson we stayed the course and consistently so, and, yes, the Latins have "tinkered" if you will with tradition and sacred things of the Church, but they are on the rebound and we are glad!
But it comes to me as strange that you would complain of "tinkering" when such a term best describes Protestant and Baptist assemblies, where there is an infinite degree of variation of theology and belief among groups, and where everyone interprets to his or her satisfaction.
That being said, it is also true that the 19th century brought about two dogmas that have widened rather than narrowed our theological gap, namely the dogma of Immaculate Conception and the dogma of Papal Infallibility. Perhaps thecollective wisdom of the Church and God's loving care will help us overocme these human definition and once again share our Eucharist, but these dogmas sure made it much more dififuclt.
But for now all we can do is respect each other and proclaim our common faith, rather than concentrate on things that separate us.
***Then leave that Assembly that claims to be the keeper of all the secret mysteries and come join us Born Again Christians in the joy of being saved by Grace Alone through Faith Alone in Christ Alone.***
I haven’t joined an assembly. I follow Jesus in the Church that He created and left for us. We are saved by Grace alone. We must have Faith. And Christ is our Messiah. No problems there whatsoever.
***We know from non Christian sources that Jesus was Crucified.***
Name them.
***We have guards at the tomb who are not Christians and who could be severely punished for failing in their duty yet the tomb is empty.***
Name them.
***We have hundreds of witnesses.***
Name them.
***The transformation of Paul.***
Do you have secular evidence?
***The spread of Christianity with no hierarchy, no state approval and periods of terrible persecution.***
Christianity spread far more rapidly and further afield with the Pope in St. Peter’s than at any other time in Christian history.
***THE GOSPEL would have been quickly discredited if it weren’t true. All this occurred before any hierarchy was created to tell anyone about it’s truth.***
That’s why Paul was so important. The mission to the Jews failed. It was to the Gentiles that Paul and Peter (and Thomas) went to save the Church.
We, too, believe in works, but not as a means to salvation, but because God gives us things to do. One of the misconceptions is that the Reformed (the Elect, as it were) need not tell others about Christ because God already knows who the elect are. This is true that God knows, but he does use us as the means, the “tool” to bring them to Christ. I have had this experience and it is am amazing experience, I must say. We cannot ignore the works of God, and we should be telling everybody we meet about what God has done in our lives. One plants a seed by telling them of the love of Jesus, others water with love, compassion, good deeds, and the Holy Spirit changes their hearts from stone to living flesh as he is directed by Jesus.
Though I do not know your situation, I do think you have a heart for God. Continue is the works of love, joy, compassion, and witnessing to others. Rejoice in the Lord!
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