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To: irishtenor

***Wasn’t a question of love, it was a question of understanding.

I do love God, and I do love you, and pray for your understanding.***

I thank you for your prayers and your intentions, sir. And I return them as best as I know how.

We look upon the commandments as, well, commandments. It is something overriding that we must do. We don’t get to, well, not do them. I have been extremely irritated with some of the Reformed posts that appear to minimize the responsibility of the individual to do the things that Jesus expressly and in multiple repeated ways commands us to do. Commands, not suggests.

Maybe that is something that perpetuates the misunderstanding of this works-based salvation that we are accused of. We are not works based, but we are commanded to do.


1,376 posted on 02/05/2008 7:34:59 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

We, too, believe in works, but not as a means to salvation, but because God gives us things to do. One of the misconceptions is that the Reformed (the Elect, as it were) need not tell others about Christ because God already knows who the elect are. This is true that God knows, but he does use us as the means, the “tool” to bring them to Christ. I have had this experience and it is am amazing experience, I must say. We cannot ignore the works of God, and we should be telling everybody we meet about what God has done in our lives. One plants a seed by telling them of the love of Jesus, others water with love, compassion, good deeds, and the Holy Spirit changes their hearts from stone to living flesh as he is directed by Jesus.

Though I do not know your situation, I do think you have a heart for God. Continue is the works of love, joy, compassion, and witnessing to others. Rejoice in the Lord!


1,380 posted on 02/05/2008 7:46:49 PM PST by irishtenor (Check out my blog at http://boompa53.blogspot.com/)
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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; Mad Dawg; the_conscience; wmfights; ...
[Mark to Irish:] Maybe that is something that perpetuates the misunderstanding of this works-based salvation that we are accused of. We are not works based, but we are commanded to do.

Ah, but when we look at it carefully, I think you really DO have a works-based model. IMHO, Kosta has been the most open and honest about it, calling it such. (However, in no way has he ever promoted anything like the full Pelagian view.) Here is my current understanding of the Apostolic view, and please correct me if I am wrong:

If a good Christian decides to use his free will to perform good works then he will be saved. However, if a good Christian uses his free will and decides not to do good works, then he is damned. God will examine all the good Christians and judge them based on the merit of their good works, whether in quantity or quality, or by some other measure. Whatever God's threshold is, those who have done "enough" will see Heaven, and those who haven't done enough, regardless of faith, will be sent to the down escalator.

If this is basically correct, then I really see this as a works-based salvation model. I acknowledge that you believe that grace is indispensable for salvation, however, if you believe that works and faith are separate entities, then works is a BASE, by itself, for your salvation. So for you, it would be both grace-based AND works-based.

We obviously don't see it that way at all. We see works as the CERTAIN fruit of any true faith. Now, James clearly says that faith without works is dead. We think he was referring to a false faith that never truly was. I think the Apostolic view is that he referred to a true faith in which the person made a bad decision to not do enough works. He did not use his free will to fulfill the BASE requirements for salvation.

If I have been fair enough, I hope you can see why we use terms like "works-based salvation" with you all. I think most Reformers around here know that this is not the same as full Pelagianism. Your side has made it clear that you believe that without grace no one is saved. We disagree on whether works are actually a part of faith itself, or if it is something separate that must be decided upon by a true believer. We don't think true believers have anything to decide because it is already a part of them:

2 Cor 5:17 : Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

1,608 posted on 02/08/2008 7:13:01 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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