Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Just sayin' ....
By way of contrast, in my tradition, knowledge is considered a good thing, and consequently we would not think that being kept from knowledge was a sign of God's favor.
But I see more and more how your tradition differs in its valuation of knowledge and reason. NO wonder conversation is so difficult!
God bless all y'all.
“In the ‘70’s “they” were saying ‘Q’ might not be a document at all, but a shared oral tradition.”
In the 70’s, if my recollection is correct, “Q” was James Bond’s boss and later became his bossess.
***I think it’s fear of freedom and of uncertainty. Things need to be black and white. “The Scriptures are inspired and they’re all we need and if you don’t agree it’s because God has forsaken you. Sorry about that.”
It’s very like Islam in the specific sense of the renunciation of reason and the fatalism — and the inability to argue as adults argue, with the assumption of a shared desire for truth. For them speech is to create an emotional reaction which, they hope, will control one’s thoughts,. This is what they say, in any event, and what they do. The reduplicative excerpts from Scripture are not to make a point but to give some kind of good feeling to their comrades and to glorify God.
And what better way to glorify God than to exhibit despite for His enemies, whom, of course, they would just fall down and love if only we’d drink their Koolaid.***
Well reasoned and entirely synchronous with their postings. I have noticed the fear and the black and white interpretation, even when it is demonstrably in error both to the Catholic Church’s interpretation as well as the Church Fathers’.
***Conversation requires a common ground. But common ground with us is a threat to them, something to be avoided. So no real conversation can happen, only harangues and abuse, which, of course, they deny, since they really cannot see, I guess, a difference between a question and an insult. When you question them they react angrily, and when they insult us, they protest that they are only questioning. And thus they protect themselves from having to think something they’ve never thought before.***
When one’s entire theological identity is based upon what one is NOT, then such tactics are easily understood. The Reformed could not stand, except in opposition to the Church, since they base so much of their identity upon it.
That was “M”. “Q” was the technofreak.
You will be sorely missed.
Perhaps I could take on the conversation with our separated brethren as a Lenten penance. It will be suitably arduous, I’m sure.
Vaya con Dios, my friend.
I think Mark 4:10-12 says it all.
***MB: I trust literate people who pride themselves in history and literacy amongst at least the priestly class in creating and maintaining reasonably accurate historical knowledge.
UC: Aren’t Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul literate enough for you or is it just something that they said????***
When they are not definitive, we must turn to other sources. In this case, the meticulate archives of the Jewish people themselves serve most masterfully. They know, and have kept the records, of what language they spoke, and when, and where. Their priestly class was, unlike 95 percent or better of the world, literate and prided itself on that literacy and the maintaining of the records of history.
Matthew 22:
37
He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38
This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39
The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
I guess that the Reformed don’t have to pay attention to the words of Jesus.
***The Reformed could not stand, except in opposition to the Church, since they base so much of their identity upon it.***
Of course that is true. It’s what the name refers to. If the Romanists Church repents then we can welcome back our wayward brothers and sisters back to true religon.
Semper Reformanda!
Wasn’t a question of love, it was a question of understanding.
I do love God, and I do love you, and pray for your understanding.
Of course, you may, and thank you. You read what I wrote correctly: we believe.
A proof is overwhelming evidence. It doesn't take much for a child to learn that hot oven is not something to touch.
As you said, there is no such train-stopping evidence when it comes to things biblical. It simply must be believed, for no reason whatsoever. If I were to follow my reason I wouldn't believe, certainly not based on evidence presented by some "official" God's moutpieces.
That's why quoting the Bible proves nothing. The Bible doesn't give you faith. The Bible is meaningful only to those who already believe. It clarifies and puts thing in perspective.
It doesn't make one "know" more than what he or she already believes. It doesn't provide the seal of authenticity for something that has already been authenticated in your heart.
Christians go to church to pray to and praise the Lord, to thank Him for His abundance of blessings and to ask Him to help us stay in His light.
We read from the Gospels as lessons of humility and love, of mercy and of acts that we should imitate in our daily lives.
We don't "proof text" the Bible for veracity to gain further "knowledge" of God so that we can become His mouthpieces. Our acts, how we live, will show that God is in our life more than words will. and they will carry the message louder than the words.
Let's just remember that those Christians who died in Roman pogroms probably could not quote a single verse, let alone have the whole Bible memorized. But, they believed, and probably more than the modern-day Pharisees do.
Then leave that Assembly that claims to be the keeper of all the secret mysteries and come join us Born Again Christians in the joy of being saved by Grace Alone through Faith Alone in Christ Alone.
The overwhelming evidence is there.
We know from non Christian sources that Jesus was Crucified. We have guards at the tomb who are not Christians and who could be severely punished for failing in their duty yet the tomb is empty. We have hundreds of witnesses. We have disciples who were transformed into roaring lions for GOD willing to suffer terrible persecution. The transformation of Paul. The spread of Christianity with no hierarchy, no state approval and periods of terrible persecution. All this is testimony to the actual events.
THE GOSPEL would have been quickly discredited if it weren't true. All this occurred before any hierarchy was created to tell anyone about it's truth.
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
******The Reformed could not stand, except in opposition to the Church, since they base so much of their identity upon it.***
Of course that is true. It’s what the name refers to.***
Thank you for the clarification.
If one stands for what one stands for, then one defines one’s self. If one stands for what one does not stand for, the one does not define one’s self.
And that is a description of the problem of the Protestant disintegration into thousands of sects. We stand upon what we believe.
***Wasn’t a question of love, it was a question of understanding.
I do love God, and I do love you, and pray for your understanding.***
I thank you for your prayers and your intentions, sir. And I return them as best as I know how.
We look upon the commandments as, well, commandments. It is something overriding that we must do. We don’t get to, well, not do them. I have been extremely irritated with some of the Reformed posts that appear to minimize the responsibility of the individual to do the things that Jesus expressly and in multiple repeated ways commands us to do. Commands, not suggests.
Maybe that is something that perpetuates the misunderstanding of this works-based salvation that we are accused of. We are not works based, but we are commanded to do.
***If one stands for what one stands for, then one defines one’s self. If one stands for what one does not stand for, the one does not define one’s self.***
That’s hokey, Mark. You can do better than that.
We stand for true religon, the apostalic doctrine.
Standing upon false belief is no virtue.
Thank you for you vote of confidence, but I must decline. You of all Reformed on this Forum wold know better than any other that most of the heresies that sprang up in the first millennium came from my side of the Church and that it was the fraternal Latin Church that helped us stay the course and return to our Orthodoxy.
I don't think the Latin side ever taught heresies comparable to those of some of our Eastern Patriarchs!
So, if anything, we owe our Latin brothers eternal gratitude, and the least we can do is extend a helping hand, if they ask, to help them to de-Protestantize their Church, and being tainted with Protestantism in manner more than belief does not even come close to ancient christological heresies of the East!
So, once we learned our lesson we stayed the course and consistently so, and, yes, the Latins have "tinkered" if you will with tradition and sacred things of the Church, but they are on the rebound and we are glad!
But it comes to me as strange that you would complain of "tinkering" when such a term best describes Protestant and Baptist assemblies, where there is an infinite degree of variation of theology and belief among groups, and where everyone interprets to his or her satisfaction.
That being said, it is also true that the 19th century brought about two dogmas that have widened rather than narrowed our theological gap, namely the dogma of Immaculate Conception and the dogma of Papal Infallibility. Perhaps thecollective wisdom of the Church and God's loving care will help us overocme these human definition and once again share our Eucharist, but these dogmas sure made it much more dififuclt.
But for now all we can do is respect each other and proclaim our common faith, rather than concentrate on things that separate us.
***Then leave that Assembly that claims to be the keeper of all the secret mysteries and come join us Born Again Christians in the joy of being saved by Grace Alone through Faith Alone in Christ Alone.***
I haven’t joined an assembly. I follow Jesus in the Church that He created and left for us. We are saved by Grace alone. We must have Faith. And Christ is our Messiah. No problems there whatsoever.
***We know from non Christian sources that Jesus was Crucified.***
Name them.
***We have guards at the tomb who are not Christians and who could be severely punished for failing in their duty yet the tomb is empty.***
Name them.
***We have hundreds of witnesses.***
Name them.
***The transformation of Paul.***
Do you have secular evidence?
***The spread of Christianity with no hierarchy, no state approval and periods of terrible persecution.***
Christianity spread far more rapidly and further afield with the Pope in St. Peter’s than at any other time in Christian history.
***THE GOSPEL would have been quickly discredited if it weren’t true. All this occurred before any hierarchy was created to tell anyone about it’s truth.***
That’s why Paul was so important. The mission to the Jews failed. It was to the Gentiles that Paul and Peter (and Thomas) went to save the Church.
We, too, believe in works, but not as a means to salvation, but because God gives us things to do. One of the misconceptions is that the Reformed (the Elect, as it were) need not tell others about Christ because God already knows who the elect are. This is true that God knows, but he does use us as the means, the “tool” to bring them to Christ. I have had this experience and it is am amazing experience, I must say. We cannot ignore the works of God, and we should be telling everybody we meet about what God has done in our lives. One plants a seed by telling them of the love of Jesus, others water with love, compassion, good deeds, and the Holy Spirit changes their hearts from stone to living flesh as he is directed by Jesus.
Though I do not know your situation, I do think you have a heart for God. Continue is the works of love, joy, compassion, and witnessing to others. Rejoice in the Lord!
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