Posted on 12/07/2007 1:41:57 PM PST by NYer
Well, actually it's not. Its your faulty reading of the Bible.
You said: "Mary was merely the mother of the male child who was God. She is NOT the mother of God -"
The Bible says:
Lu 1:43 "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?"
Tell me, do you agree with Elizabeth that Mary is the mother of your Lord?
You also said: "No Saint (which is what the Bible calls Christians) have a throne in heaven. None other than the Lord has a throne."
The Bible says:
Matthew 19:28-29 "And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."
Care to make up any more theology?
It’s easy - and pointless - to nit-pick nonessentials. The essential bit of theology is the Jesus is the Christ and no man seeks after God but those whom He calls. No works by a man not saved have any merit before Holy God and no man stands between a child of God (that means one who believes on the Lord Jesus) and God. Earthly “priests” are not true priests. Mary is not a lord nor is she an intermediator between man and God.
Luke 1:43 testifies that Mary was the human birth mother of the man who was God - she is NOT the mother of God. He is self existent.
Don’t recon I had Matt 19:28-29 in mind when I said what I said. But thrones in Heaven are not the norm - that position is reserved by God for a few. Mary is not pictured in Scripture as being on a throne - same as she is not “taken up” to heaven without having died in the flesh nor was she without sin, nor was she the product of a virgin birth. There are many who worship Mary, who elevate her to a position that no mortal can hold. That is heresy and that is the danger.
Actually, every Catholic who knows his faith would agree with this statement.
"she is NOT the mother of God."
Of course, millions of orthodox Christians over a millenium and a half would disagree. Of course God the Son, Second Person of the Trinity, is self-existent and pre-existed the creation of Mary. However, past attempts such as yours to seperate the Man, Jesus from the God, Jesus gave rise to all sorts of nasty heresies which orthodox Christians even today still reject, hence the title Mother of God. As a very wise person once stated, "You cannot know who He is, until you know who She is." Otherwise, the temptation is great to seperate the two natures of Jesus -God and Man- that are joined in One Person.
But I noticed you ignored my question. Do you agree with the Bible that Mary is the mother of your Lord? A simple yes or no will suffice.
But thrones in Heaven are not the norm - that position is reserved by God for a few.
Again, you seem a little weak on your Scripture.
Rev. 3:20,21 `Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 `He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."
Put quite simply, we all get to sit not just on a throne, but on Jesus' throne as members of the Body of Christ. Through Holy Eucharist, we come into communion with Him and become part of Him. And you're right, this free gift is totally unmerited on our part.
"nor was she the product of a virgin birth. There are many who worship Mary, who elevate her to a position that no mortal can hold."
I know of no one or no faith that a) holds that Mary was the product of a virgin birth or b) worships her. You may want to consider the possiblity that perhaps your understanding of other faiths is a tad weaker even than your familiarity with scripture.
Yes, she is -- as defined in Scripture!
So are you saying that you do not believe Holy Scriptures:
13 [36-37] The sign given to Mary in confirmation of the angel's announcement to her is the pregnancy of her aged relative Elizabeth. If a woman past the childbearing age could become pregnant, why, the angel implies, should there be doubt about Mary's pregnancy, for nothing will be impossible for God.
14 [43] Even before his birth, Jesus is identified in Luke as the Lord.
15 [45] Blessed are you who believed: Luke portrays Mary as a believer whose faith stands in contrast to the disbelief of Zechariah (Luke 1:20). Mary's role as believer in the infancy narrative should be seen in connection with the explicit mention of her presence among "those who believed" after the resurrection at the beginning of the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 1:14).
16 [46-55] Although Mary is praised for being the mother of the Lord and because of her belief, she reacts as the servant in a psalm of praise, the Magnificat. Because there is no specific connection of the canticle to the context of Mary's pregnancy and her visit to Elizabeth, the Magnificat (with the possible exception of v 48) may have been a Jewish Christian hymn that Luke found appropriate at this point in his story. Even if not composed by Luke, it fits in well with themes found elsewhere in Luke: joy and exultation in the Lord; the lowly being singled out for God's favor; the reversal of human fortunes; the fulfillment of Old Testament promises. The loose connection between the hymn and the context is further seen in the fact that a few Old Latin manuscripts identify the speaker of the hymn as Elizabeth, even though the overwhelming textual evidence makes Mary the speaker.
Your footnotes are not the Words of God. Nothing in His Words proclaim Mary as His mother. God does not have a mother - He is the great “I AM” -meaning He is self existent. Mary gave birth to the man Jesus - the only begotten of God, which means Jesus had no earthly biological father. Jesus was on Earth as a man who was God. 100% of each - not 50% of each. He was the Son of God from before time (read Colossians chapter 1).
Mary gave birth to the man Jesus. Jesus existed before He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He humbled Himself and took on flesh (read Philippians chapter 2).
To say that Mary is the mother of God puts God’s existence in the hands of flesh - this is heresy. She was the mother of Jesus - the man, who has always been Jesus - the Lord of Heaven. She ain’t the mother of God.
Do me a favor. Read that back a few times and think about the word "merely".
Mary is a child of God if she is saved (which is reasonable to presume)
Reasonable? This is what the Church, in fact, teaches.
No Saint (which is what the Bible calls Christians) have a throne in heaven.
Bill Clinton is a Christian. That means he's a saint? I don't understand your point here.
As for "thrones" for the saints, there's also no evidence that there are Bibles in heaven, so...
None other than the Lord has a throne.
Where does it say that? Are you quoting Scripture or employing Protestant tradition?
It’s the Bible, not any man called priest or pope by other men.
Ironically, the Bible has a lot to say about bishops and priests, and absolutely nothing to say about the "Bible".
Is Jesus God or isn't he? What does "was on Earth as a man who was God" mean?
Jesus is not a man anymore? Jesus isn't God anymore?
So you're saying Jesus isn't God? Because if Mary is the Mother of Jesus, then she must be the Mother of God. I suppose you accept the incarnation as a mystery, but will not accept the mystery of Mary's motherhood of God? Why?
Mary gave birth to the man Jesus - the only begotten of God
The "man Jesus" is not the only begotten of God. The Son - the Word of God - is begotten of God. Jesus is the Word made flesh, begotten of the Virgin Mary and her spouse, the Holy Spirit. But here's where it gets tricky: Jesus is BOTH the only begotten of God - as the Divine Word - AND the offpspring of Mary. Since Jesus IS God, then Mary IS the Mother of God. It's a mystery. Just like God taking on the flesh. How did He do it and remain at His eternal throne? We don't know. It defies logic and science, but it happened. How is Mary the Mother of the Eternal God, if she herself is a mortal? It's a mystery, but she is.
Nowhere does Scripture instruct man to separate Jesus' human and Divine natures, for any purpose whatsoever. The Church, however, believed from the outset that Mary was not some ordinary soul outside of her being created. Since God Himself tells us that "all nations will call [her] blessed," who are you to complain?
correction: “all generations will call me blessed,” not “nations”.
As God, Jesus has no earthly parents. He was and is the second person of the God head, ever existent. Born in the flesh as a man. That human form was given birth by Mary - not the Lord Jesus. He - Jesus - was before Moses ever drew breath.
You’re confusing Jesus’s two natures. He is both human and divine. His divine nature had no parents, since it is eternal. His human nature did not exist until the Incarnation, and this nature has earthly parents - a biological parent (Mary) and a foster parent (St. Joseph).
"human form ... not the Lord Jesus" ??
Are you a Docetist?
The footnotes are explanatory.
Did you even read the Scripture?
What Church do you attend to have been fed ideas like this?
Don’t you know he changed the water into juice?
I’m just glad to see a controversy over the Theotokos ignite. NOW it feels like Christmas, even though it’s 80 degrees and muggy as all get out.
"Do you agree with the Bible that Mary is the Mother of YOUR Lord?"
In some congregations, Yes
Mary is the mother of the flesh Christ put on. As Creator, Jesus does not have any earthly parents. The Roman Catholic doctrine is quite naive and wrong is declaring Mary is the mother of God. He is self existent and has no parents.
No, I am not a Docetist - Jesus Christ humbled Himself and put on flesh, which was born by Mary. He was 100% man and 100% God. As man, he was born of flesh by Mary. As God, He has always existed. God has no mother.
I read the Bible regularly. I belong to a Southern Baptist church, but do not bow to SBC doctrine or practice if it departs from Scripture.
I know of nobody outside the Roman Catholic church that insists that Mary is the mother of God. Every Christian I know, outside of the RCC, knows Mary was the mother of Jesus - who came to Earth as a human, born of the flesh - in the flesh. He was God - NOT born of the flesh, being self existent and always existent.
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