Joseph Smith: Creator of the Fourth Abrahamic Faith; Mormonism

Joseph Smith Jr. was born December 23, 1805 in Sharon, Vermont. It is interesting that Brigham Young and John Humphrey Noyes, founder of the Oneida Community in upstate New York, also were born in Vermont. Joseph Smith Sr. lost considerable money in speculative business ventures putting the family in near poverty and resulting in seven moves in the first fourteen years of Joseph Smith’s life. Around the year 1815 his family settled in Palmyra New York, just north of the finger lakes, and not far from the Oneida Free Community. He was limited in education and training, had little interest in farming or other types of work, and his interests moved into the spiritual and mystical realms. He spent a fair amount of time searching for buried treasure claiming miraculous powers but not succeeding.

In his autobiography “The Pearl of Great Price”, Joseph Smith relates that he became disturbed by the religious squabbles among Methodists, Baptists and Presbyterians in the community and indeed in his own family. He elected to follow advice he had found in James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” In the spring of 1820 Smith went to the woods to pray and to seek God. In his words he was sized by a “great power that left him speechless and in darkness.” He called on God for deliverance and then saw a great light over his head and heard a voice saying “This is my beloved son, hear him.” His next visit occurred three years later on September 21, 1823 when he was visited by an Angel named Maroni who directed him to a nearby hill where he would find a hidden book written on gold plates along with information on how to translate the inscribed words. The translated book became the Book of Mormon.

In 1829 Smith and his friend baptized each other and were visited, in his account, by John the Baptist who conferred on them both the Priesthood of Aaron. Later that year, although the date is uncertain, they were visited by the Apostles Peter, James and John who conferred on them both the both the Priesthood of Melchizedek, the King of Salem (Jerusalem) who lived during the time of the patriarch Abraham. As described in the Doctrines and Covenants of the Mormon Church Smith continued to receive revelations from God until his death.

In 1830 Joseph Smith established his Church in upstate New York and called it initially the Church of Christ. Later he moved his Church to Kirtland, Ohio, then Caldwell County, Missouri and in 1839 to Nauvoo Illinois. As a result of events that happened in Nauvoo, to be discussed below, he was arrested, moved to a jail in the county seat, Carthage where he and his brother Hyrum were assassinated by an angry mob.

In 1830 Smith was directed by an encounter with the angel Moroni to a location near Palimyra, New York on a hill subsequently named Cumorah where he found golden plates These plates were miraculously translated by Smith which revealed that it was the Book of Mormon that had been inscribed on these plates. Only a small handful of Smith’s followers were allowed to see the plates. Smith published his translation in 1830 and the angel Moroni subsequently took the plates back.

The Book of Mormon describes the migration by boat of several Jewish tribes from what we now call Israel to what we now call the New World of North and South America 600 years before Christ. Two of these tribes were named the Nephites and the Lamanites. The Lamanites are described as marked by God with a darker skin color to identify their state of wickedness. After Christ’s resurrection he visited the New World and the Nephites and the Lamanites subsequently had several centuries of peaceful co-existence and cooperation. This ended with a massive battle on the hill Cumorah in which the Nephites were destroyed by the Lamanites. Mormons believe that American Indians are descendants of the Lamanites. In the Book of Ether, one of the books in the Book of Mormon, a people described as the Jaredites are described. Thes people were present at the Tower of Babel when human language was confounded but they fortunately escaped such confounding of their language. Approximately 2500 years before Christ the Jaredites by barge migrated to the New World. They grew to a civilization of two million people before they destroyed themselves by their own behavior just prior to the arrival of the Nephites and Lamanites.

This all is, of course, a fabulous fable for which there is not even minimally convincing archeological, anthropological or historical evidence. However to say it is a creative fable written by an individual with an exceptionally imaginative mind would be an understatement. History of Mormonism

The organizational meeting of the Church of Christ, the forerunner of what became the Mormon Church was held April 6, 1830. Smith and Cowdery met with a small number of their followers. A lay ministry was ordained with a priesthood and offices of deacon, teacher, and elder. Smith and Cowdery were ordained as Apostles of Jesus Christ and as first and second elders respectively. In 1831 the Church moved to Kirtland. Ohio and its name was changed to the Church of Latter Day Saints. Sidney Rigdon, a prominent restorationist minister and follower of Alexander Campbell converted to Mormonism, joined Smith’s nascent Church and brought a large number of “Cambellites” along with him. The Church of Latter Day Saints doubled in size. A Mormon temple was built in Kirtland. At that time a second Mormon gathering place was established in Independence, Jackson County, Missouri. Smith declared that the “City of Zion” would be built at that site. Construction was started but the temple was never built.

By 1837 the Church in Kirtland was unraveling with apostasy among the leadership and members and major financial irregularities in a bank Smith established. Smith, Rigdon and some of their followers fled from Kirtland to Missouri in the middle of the night. Dissenters in Kirtland reestablished the original Church of Christ and took possession of the temple. In 1836 the Mormon legislature had established the town of Far West, in Caldwell County as a place for Mormons to settle and so they did immediately. In 1838 Smith and Rigdon moved to Far West and had to struggle for Church leadership with Mormons already there and in Independence. Church leaders Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and William Wines Phelps were excommunicated by Smith and eventually fled Far West under threats for their lives. Cowdery and Whitmer were two of the three who claimed they had seen the golden plates. The Mormon Church now again under the leadership of Joseph Smith was reestablished and renamed the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, its present name.

In Far West Smith organized a paramilitary organization called the Danites, named in honor of the Jewish tribe of Dan of which Sampson was a member. Its role was to enforce religious conformity and protect the Mormons against the non Mormons. Secret instruction given the Captains of the Danites are described by Smith as follows:

“Know ye not, brethren, that it will soon be your privilege to take !your respective companies and go out on a scout on the borders of the settlements, and take to yourselves spoils of the goods of the ungodly Gentiles? for it is written, the riches of the Gentiles shall be 'consecrated to my people, the house of Israel; and thus you will waste away the Gentiles by robbing and plundering them of their property; and in this way we will build up the kingdom of God, and roll forth the little stone that Daniel saw cut out of the mountain without hands, and roll forth until it filled the whole earth. For this is the very way that God destines to build up His kingdom in the last days. If any of us should be recognized, who can harm us? for we will stand by each other and defend one another in all things. . . . I would swear a lie to clear any of you; and if this would not do, I would put them or him under the sand as Moses did the Egyptian; and in this way we will consecrate much unto the Lord.” This militancy, combined with claims of almost universal authority by Smith and Rigdon and the behavior of the Mormon settlers in Missouri led to much resentment on the part of the non-Mormons, now called “Gentiles”. In fact the Church militancy led Thomas B. Marsh, President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to break with Smith and to establish his own Church the Church of Jesus Christ, the Lambs Wife. President Governor Boggs of Missouri issued an order that the Mormons should be exterminated and driven from Missouri. Among other things this led to a brutal and bloody attack by 200 Missouri militiamen on a Mormon settlement at Haun’s Hill. Many Mormons were killed. The fighting in Caldwell county became so intense that it is referred to as the Mormon Wars. It took 2500 Missouri militiamen to put down the rebellion. Governor Boggs ordered that Smith should be executed for treason. This outrageous order fortunately was never obeyed but the charge of treason remained. Smith and other Church leaders were arrested and imprisoned in a jail in Liberty, Missouri. They were allowed to escape and moved to an area in Illinois on the Mississippi river across from Iowa. Smith named his new town Nauvoo.

The Mormons regrouped in 1840 and by 1844 Nauvoo was the second most populous city in the State of Illinois. Joseph Smith’s vision of a Kingdom of God under his leadership came to full flowering in Nauvoo. Nauvoo had received a charter from the State Legislature allowing them to raise a well organized militia. Joseph became the Mayor, Chief Justice of the Nauvoo Municipal court and Lieutenant General and Commander of the Nauvoo militia. This militia contained close to 3000 troops compared with 8500 troops in the United States Army at that time.

In 1842 Smith established a new Anointed Council for the Church, a select group of individuals who received their endowments directly from Smith. In 1844, three months before his death Smith established the ultra-secret Council of Fifty which promptly named him King, Priest and ruler over Israel on earth. Smith had now been practicing plural marriage, i.e. polygamy, for some time but he now authorized plural marriage for all Mormons. This is remarkable because plural marriage is explicitly condemned and declared to be an abomination in the Book of Mormon (Book of Jacob 2: 24, 27). He also instituted baptism for the dead.

Smith declared in a public sermon on May 12, 1844 “I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the Kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation to revolutionize the world”. These events and others led to the development of a strong dissenting movement led by William Law, one of the previous strongest supporters of Smith. On Sunday May 26, 1844 Smith gave a public response to the dissenters:

“God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil——all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole Church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! In this statement he also denied plural marriages when the fact is he had anywhere from 30 -50 wives at that time.

The dissenters established an opposition newspaper the Nauvoo Expositor. The paper criticized the developing theocracy and autocracy in Nauvoo, and also criticized the newly established doctrine of plural marriage to which they took great exception. Smith ordered the Expositor’s printing presses destroyed and for this he was arrested by order of Governor Ford of Illinois. Smith was subsequently imprisoned in the jail at Carthage, the county seat. Unfortunately but not by design Joseph Smith was not provided with adequate protection by the governor’s forces and on June 27, 1844 he was murdered in his cell along with his brother Hyrum.

After the death of Smith, on April 5, 1845 Brigham Young became President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. On April 6, 1844 under Young’s leadership the Twelve Apostles issued the following declaration. For its audacity and scope it should be read in full: PROCLAMATION

OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS. To all the King's of the World; To the President of the United States of America; To the Governors of the several States; And to the Rulers and People of all Nations: GREETING: KNOW YE:—— THAT the kingdom of God has come: as has been predicted by ancient prophets, and prayed for in all ages; even that kingdom which shall fill the whole earth, and shall stand for ever. The great Eloheem Jehovah has been pleased once more to speak from the heavens: and also to commune with man upon the earth, by means of open visions, and by the ministration of HOLY MESSENGERS. By this means the great and eternal High Priesthood, after the Order of his Son, even the Apostleship, has been restored; or, returned to the earth. This High Priesthood, or Apostleship, holds the keys of the kingdom of God, and power to bind on earth that which shall be bound in heaven; and to loose on earth that which shall be loosed in heaven. And, in fine, to do, and to administer in all things pertaining to the ordinances, organization, government and direction of the kingdom of God.

The proclamation continues for a dozen pages of unbelievable claims and assertions.

What is discussed here briefly is the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints with its headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah. The Church teaches that after the death of Jesus there was a Great Apostasy. In its own words: Following the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted and killed many Church members, and other Church members drifted from the principles taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles. The Apostles were killed and the priesthood authority including the keys to direct and receive revelation for the Church was taken from the earth Because the Church was no longer led by priesthood authority and revelation, error crept into Church teachings. Good people and much truth remained, but the gospel as established by Jesus Christ was lost. This necessitated a Restoration of the Church which took place starting in 1820 with the first vision of Joseph Smith Jr, followed by Smith’’s discovery of the golden plates and the inscribed Book of Mormon, and many subsequent revelations claimed by Joseph Smith. The Priesthood authority (first Aaronic then Melchisedek) was conferred on Joseph Smith by Christ’’s Apostles Peter James and John. As a result Smith now claimed to possess the Fullness of the Gospel. Joseph Smith clearly was a Bible scholar, otherwise he would never have known about Melchizedek, a rather obscure figure in the Bible. The Priesthood of Mechizedek is mentioned only in three books of the Bible; Genesis, Psalms and Hebrews. In Genesis 14 Abram, after rescuing Lot in battle, is blessed by Melchizedek, king of Salem ( Jerusalem), who is described as a "priest of God Most High." In return Abram gives King Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils of battle. In Psalm 110 the psalmist states that his personal lord has been made by the Lord on High a "priest forever in the order of Melchizedek." The unknown author of Hebrews in chapters 6-7 identifies Jesus as a "priest forever in the order of Melchizedek." Further this author claims that the Melchizedek Priesthood is superior to the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood by virtue of Abram giving Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils of battle, thus implying the superiority of Christianity over Judaism. Obviously Hebrews makes quite different theological points than does Joseph Smith.

On April 6, 1844 in the King Follett Discourse Joseph Smith described his view of the nature of God (Journal of Discourses vol 6):

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,-I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form-like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another. In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power"-to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious-in a manner, to lay down his body and take up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,-namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one,-from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me. In 1857, at the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City Brigham Young said this: I want to tell you, each and every one of you, that you are well acquainted with God our heavenly Father, or the great Eloheim. You are all well acquainted with Him, for there is not a soul of you but what has lived in His house and dwelt with Him year after year; and yet you are seeking to become acquainted with Him, when the fact is, you have merely forgotten what you did know. I told you a little last Sabbath about forgetting things. There is not a person here to-day but what is a son or a daughter of that Being. In the spirit world their spirits were first begotten and brought forth, and they lived there with their parents for ages before they came here. This, perhaps, is hard for many to believe, but it is the greatest nonsense in the world not to believe it. If you do not believe it, cease to call Him Father; and when you pray, pray to some other character. Young also said this: Now to the facts in the case; all the difference between Jesus Christ and any other man that ever lived on the earth, from the days of Adam until now, is simply this, the Father, after He had once been in the flesh, and lived as we live, obtained His exaltation, attained to thrones, gained the ascendancy over principalities and powers, and had the knowledge and power to create-to bring forth and organize the elements upon natural principles. This He did after His ascension, or His glory, or His eternity, and was actually classed with the Gods, with the beings who create, with those who have kept the celestial law while in the flesh, and again obtained their bodies. Then He was prepared to commence the work of creation, as the Scriptures teach. It is all here in the Bible; I am not telling you a word but what is contained in that book. Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth. This is the origin of the Mormon concept of great numbers of spirit babies, sired by God, that oblige Mormon women to provide earthly bodies for.

In Mormon theology God the Father and God the Son, i.e. Jesus Christ, are two distinct persons each with glorified perfect bodies of flesh and blood. The body of God looks human in appearance but is perfect beyond description. Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament and created the world. God is the father of Jesus’’ spirit body but also is the literal father of Jesus’’ physical body. Mormons believe in the physical resurrection of Christ and that after his resurrection his spirit and physical bodies reunited and he is the living head of the Church. Mormons believe that in the Great Apostasy the Priesthood of Christ was lost. In fact, at the time of Christ’’s resurrection there was no Priesthood connected to or associated with Christ or any of his Apostles or followers.

Although Mormon theology contains some elements of Christianity it is not Christian theology nor does it reflect Christian understandings of the nature of God and Christ. In addition nor does it reflect Christian history. Indeed it is diametrically opposed to what is known historically about Christianity. Joseph Smith said to his followers ““Ye are the children of Israel and of the seed of Abraham.”” Mormonism can best be understood as a fourth Abrahamic faith.

Joseph Smith and Muhammed each claimed to be the last, not merely the latest, but the last Prophet of God. Each created a Holy Book to support his claim and a new religion to implement his claim in the world. In creating the Koran Muhammed plagiarized extensively from the Old Testament of the Bible. In fact of the twenty five Prophets of Islam twenty two are in the Bible including Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Joseph, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus. In creating the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith also borrowed extensively from the Bible. But in addition he wrote an incredible fable of the migration of Jewish tribes to the New World 600 years before Christ. Muhammed and Joseph Smith each believed that his religion would one day control the entire world. from them every fingertip.’’

In the words of David Bigler, author of the book The Forgotten Kingdom; The Mormon Theocracy in the American West 1847-1896 (Utah State University Press, 1998) the grandiose goals of the Mormons were as follows: "Accepting any suffering or hardship, its people set out to accomplish an incredibly ambitious and confrontational purpose. This was to sweep away all other nations of the world and make ready for the coming of the Lord, and to do this within their own lifetimes. ““For the destiny of the Mormon kingdom was to roll forth to world dominion, to prevail over the kingdoms of the earth, as a condition of Christ’’s return to inaugurate his millennial reign.”” "

Both Muhammed and Joseph Smith claimed to have been visited by Angels. In the case of Muhammed it was the Angel Gabriel who, not coincidentally was the Angel in the Gospel of Luke who told Mary of the coming birth of Jesus. In the case of Smith it was the Angel Moroni who in the Book of Mormon had been a member of one of the Jewish tribes that had come to the New World so many years before Christ.

Islam and Mormonism both experienced succession crises on the death of the founder. In Islam the succession went to Abu Bakr a close follower of Muhammed and not to a family member Ali, husband of Fatima Muhammed’’s daughter. This led to the split in Islam to the Sunni and Shia traditions. In the case of Joseph Smith the succession went to a close follower of Smith, Brigham Young, and not to Smith’s son Joseph Smith III. The Church split into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The latter movement in 2001 became the Community of Christ a Christian denomination.

Joseph Smith was well aware of the life of Muhammed and the ““Sword of Islam.”” In a sworn affidavit a close follower of Smith,Thomas B. Marsh, made the following comments:

“The Prophet inculcates the notion, and it is believed by every true Mormon, that Smith's prophecies are superior to the laws of the land. I have heard the Prophet say that he would yet tread down his enemies, and walk over their dead bodies; and if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky mountains to the Atlantic ocean; that like Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was, 'the Alcoran or the Sword.' So should it be eventually with us, 'Joseph Smith or the Sword.'

In 1847 Brigham Young moved with his followers to what is now known as Utah, then part of Mexico, established his Kingdom of God on earth and named it Deseret. He claimed land from the Rocky Mountains in present day Colorado to the Sierra Nevada in California. The violence associated with the Mormon Church disappeared after this fifty year theocracy in Utah, from 1847 -1896. The better part of this period was characterized by violence and rebellion against federal officials and indeed against the authority of the United States government. In 1857 President Buchanan sent federal troops to Utah to put done the rebellion against the United States government. In May,1862 the War Department of the United States government ordered a regiment of troops from California under the command or Colonel Connor to Utah territory to protect the overland mail route. General Halleck, commanding officer of the U.S. army in Washington D.C issued the following order to Connor: "all arms and military munitions intended for use against the authority of the United States are liable for seizure." Coming just three years after the remnants of the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre had been viewed by U.S. troops, it is clear that this order was directed at the Mormon rebellion and not protecting the overland mail route. Colonel Connor, soon to become General Connor, established his camp on the heights above Salt Lake City with his guns trained on the city below. Brigham Young ordered his Navoo Legion to bring canon in to protect the city and his house. Fortunately Connor's guns and Young's cannon trained on each other were never fired. In 1896 the Mormon Church gave up polygamy and made other concessions in its political and theological structures in order to became a State in the United States of America.

“Trying to tick you off” may be a side benefit, but the real purpose of invoking the “burning in the colon” is to diffuse what you and most Mormon’s view as a debate closer

A Your prediction for ticking people off as entertainment does not speak well of you.
B It is a debate closer for us, once God speaks, what any one else says is irrelevant. We do not expect it to close the debate for you.

‘I felt a burning in the bosom and therefore I’m right’. You believe in revelation, but seem incapable of admitting that anyone else might have a revelation that was counter to yours.

Yes, you are correct, God will only tell the truth, he will not tell me yes, and you no, I made an analogy with math earlier...

Indeed, many of us have had a revelation that Mormonism is a cult and that it needs to be opposed because it drains the souls of men (if we had not had such a revelation, why would we battle so hard?).

Really? Please tell me how this revelation came to you. When you tell me, the burden of proof is on you, to prove you are not lying because I have received a witness, and I have personally caught anti's telling Blatant lies to try to injure the testimonies of Mormons who read here. Do you know who Mark Hoffman is? He is an excellent example of an anti Mormon, he grew up in he church, committed sins, went before his bishop and passed an interview for a mission (he lied and knew he was lying) and he went on his mission anyway, figuring that if he could lie to his bishop the church wasn't true (even though the doctrine is clear that God will allow men to chose to lie and reap the consequences) He returned from his mission, and pretended to be a good solid member, while forging documents designed to bring down the Church. We may never know (in this life) all the forgeries, so if I were an anti, I would be mad at him for muddying the water of anything I might find. In the end, he was so sure he was right he began murdering people with car bombs to cover his tracks (murdering for Jesus?) he was injured when one of his bombs went off in his car as he was transporting it, caught, tried and confessed all of this. I link to Wikipedia which has a brief description which differs in some minor details from my memory, but i do not consider them significant and am willing to go with Wikipedia on this if you have a problem my recitation, either will show you the lengths Anti Mormons will go to.

Moreover, you generically deny Objective evidence, trying to turn everything into the subjective which you can trump with your burning in the bosom speach.

Objective like having differing interpretations of scripture? LOL!

Unfortunately for you, the objective evidence in the form of historical documents is huge.

Yeah, that's what Mark thought, 'nuf said.

It shows Joseph Smith was a petty peep stone diviner before latching on to the religion scam, it shows the Book of Mormon an artifact of early settler lore about the connections of Jews and American Indians (totally falsified by current DNA data), it shows the Kirtland bank scandal to be a scam which required purging numerous stout Mormons from the fold to hide the truth. And so much more.

Peep stone? Yes, he had the ability to divine, it was a common thing back then to use divining rods and etc. so? (I heard Jesus taught in the temple before he started his ministry... Shhhh!)

Religion Scam? So much for your objectivity.

Early settler lore, LOL! Such a fabrication.

DNA evidence? Talk about Subjective, here, read This Kirtland bank scandal, LOL This has been debunked so many times it's pathetic that you bring this back from a well deserved rest.

I think we can agree on one thing: Very few are the number of people who have a neutral opinion of Joseph Smith and there has been so much said on both sides that the truth is difficult to find.

This obfuscation of the truth is why I encourage people to pray and ask God for he knows the truth far better than you or I.

Moreover, while the Mormons have at times been treated unfairly, Much as we are being treated here.

any reading of both sides of the historical documents shows that the Mormons incited as much animosity as not, and Joseph Smith was cut from the mold of a dandy/tinpot general/fraudster/king. Brigham Young was perhaps even worse, being a murderous thief. One cannot read the accounts of Missouri and of Illinois Governor Ford and not be struck by the realization that the Gentiles were acting out of fear of the Mormon Danites and militia and the possibility of a breakaway theocracy in their midst as much as any animosity to individual Mormons. Indeed, the Mormons could have been annihilated a number of times except for the forbearance of Gentiles.

If you remember, my ancestry comes from "The other side" of Mormonism, don't tell me they were forbearing, they weren't. Like most people, they did what was best for them, they tried to look out for number one while not stepping in number two.

BTW, your sidewise swipes at good men, detracts from your argument.

Now people can certainly come to less severe conclusions than I have based on the records

You can say that again, and again.

You might want to consider Matt. 7: 1-2

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I for one would hate to stand before the Bar of God with harsh judgment on my record.

but just as assuredly it is impossible to read the FAIR and FARM spin on history and not realize in juxtaposition to the records that a whitewashing has occurred.

Really? The anti sites that still quote from proven forgeries can be trusted?
Which is worse, to believe good of evil men or to believe evil of Good men?
As to your Whitewashing theory, please not that the Link to Mark Hoffman on Wikipedia that I listed earlier mentions that we gave a "incriminating" letter (that was forged, but we didn't know it then) to the RLDS church because it was important to them. Individual Mormons have undoubtedly covered up things that they thought damaged the church even when the church would have wished otherwise, the Catholics have the same problem in their history. The LDS church is very open on it's web site as is the Catholic church, and that I applaud, non Mormons are just as free to download the study materials and talks as I am. This charge of conspiracy to cover up our "flaws" just does not hold water. However, I do not expect you to see that.

When a church thrives on distortion of history, on secrecy and excommunication of apostates by the droves,

Distortion not!
Secrecy only the Temple ceremonies are kept Sacred and from the world, all else is published and in nauseating detail.
excommunication of apostates by the droves Well, our numbers should be declining dramatically, no wait, we are one of the fastest Growing religions. I ask you, should a Church (earthly organization) tolerate those who openly flout and disobey? Thus impairing the Church (earthly organization) from Preaching the Gospel (Eternal message of salvation that encompasses all man kind)?

Have you been paying attention to what is happening to the Episcopal Church with the Gay marriage issue? This is what happens when a church does not clean house. (My apologies to Episcopalians, I have several friends who feel this very deeply)

one knows the jig is up.

Yes, I not that you have not quoted a single source, what too much of a hurry?

The steady bleed of apostates who have been harmed by Mormonism is itself a revelation that all is not well in the land of Oz.

The "Steady bleed" is not enough to keep our numbers from Growing, and while regrettable is predictable, every church has those who do not continue in faith to it.

You post these things as if they are a triumphal victory over Mormonism, well, I would never dream of robbing you of your moment of success, alas, a moment was all I could spare... (The Scarlet pimpernell)

I've been viewing these "testimony" posts exchanges with interest but haven't weighed in on this topic on any thread til now.

Well, then it's about time!

When the Bible repeats itself almost word for word, it means "pay special attention." Solomon, the wisest man in the Old Testament, did that by repeating in Prov. 16:25 what he wrote in Prov. 14:12: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."

So, man's way can lead to death, I agree.

(It'd be real interesting to see/hear a Latter-day saint acknowledge that for once...that feelings and inner "certainties" can lead to death)

Absolutely, which is why we say to ask God.

Solomon knew how feelings could be especially misleading. And he didn't stop there. In Prov. 12:15, he wrote: "The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice." (Solomon elsewhere also lauds receiving the counsel of MANY--instead of just taking the word of ONE 14 yo boy...LDS prophets have already said that everything stands or falls on ONE man--Smith).

Actually, asking for Confirmation from God makes 2 and then there were witnesses, testimonies borne here , and many more at your local LDS meeting house (we also make house calls)

It might be beneficial for me to point out that your salvation rests upon one person, Jesus Christ to give up his life for you. (which thankfully he did.)

The Israelites were dependent on Moses...

Also, in Prov. 18:17, he wrote: "The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him."

I don't recall ever being the first to post on one of these threads...

For example, a Mormon missionary who gets to a South Pacific Islander first may have the inner pathway, but the young missionary, when appropriately questioned, may suddenly begin to lose his case.

Well, he's young, I stood up to many a preacher while still a lad, and many more than I have too. (It's harder to deny the spirit when talking to a Mormon in person)

And the fact that it's gotten heavy into this area, what I call the final frontier--the Last Stand--for Mormons generally is quite interesting. It tells me we've come to the stage of "Don't confuse me with the facts; I've got my feelings to rely upon, thank you."

LOL! Facts? there has been so much misinformation thrown around on this board that without the spirit it'd be impossible to locate one (that's OK, I'll lead you to them...

I've seen it many times, and heard others describe it many times. When LDS are backed into a corner, what they'll flail out with is "I bear you my testimony that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God, that..."

Please explain to me what corner I have supposedly been backed into, I was told I was in a hole (most holes don't have "corners", being freshly dug.) you guys need to get together on your metaphors.

And it's right here in this kind of phrasing that shows you this is NOT the gospel of the Bible.

Yeah! the Bible doesn't testify of anything (giggle)

IF THE MOST IMPORTANT TESTIMONY TO CONVEY IS ONE THAT WASN'T ON THIS PLANET TIL 1830--TIL 1800 YEARS AFTER CHRIST'S INCARNATIONAL PRESENCE HERE, THEN SOMETHING IS DEEPLY, DEEPLY WRONG AND MISGUIDED AND MISDIRECTED ABOUT SUCH A RELIGIOUS SYSTEM. WAKE UP! (Smell the coffee beans created by Jesus, not by Smith)

First, Momrons Don't drink Coffee. Second, of course they were created by Jesus, Third if Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet of God no one would care a whit about him (other than his descendants). Fourth and last, The Book of Mormon Testifies of Jesus Christ, which is the most important thing about it.

This leads then to the natural question. What IS the most important testimony to convey? Don't trust me for the answer; read the following from Jesus' beloved apostle, John:

(7) For there are three that testify:
(8) the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
(9) We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given ABOUT HIS SON
(10)Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given ABOUT HIS SON.
(11)And this is the testimony: God HAS given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (12)He who HAS the Son HAS life; he who does not HAVE the Son of God does not HAVE life.
(13)I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life.
(14)This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
(15)And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
(1 John 5:7-15)

Whew, boy learn to break on the verse will ya? Besides, you quoted it wrong, here, let me. 1 John 5:7-15

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

LOL! John is telling us to ask God for what we desire, I desired to know the truth, God told me, The witness I received is not from Men, but of God. This is funny, your scripture quotations support me more than they support you.

So, to sum up:
(1) LDS overweigh their personal testimony at the expense of God's testimony...1 John 5:7-8 (the Spirit, who uses the Word; the blood, which was importantly shed on Calvary, not just sweated in Gethsemane which is where LDS say the atonement took place; and the water).

BZZT Wrong! I invited all to PRAY (and not to me, and not to Joseph Smith) to God for an answer. Somebody here can't read english and it's not me.

(2) "I bear you witness..." cannot compare to "I, God, bear you witness..." God's testimony is greater than man's (1 John 5:9)...it'd be nice for LDS to acknowledge that for once.

That is why I said I wanted to invite all to hear God's witness, in fact, I specifically said not to believe me but to believe God, have you even been reading this thread?

(3) LDS misdirect their testimony to a man who lived 1800 years after Jesus Christ, thereby overshadowing Christ and his cross of Calvary (note that cross & Calvary are notably missing from just about all semblences of LDS meeting places and hymns). John, twice (1 John 5:9-10), says this true testimony is ABOUT HIS SON...It's not about Joseph!!!

Um, again with the we pray to Joseph thing, it's beyond oops now, we pray to God, and we invite all to ask God if the Book of Mormon is God's word. Who give a flying Fig about anything Joseph Smith wrote on his own. The questions is what does God say?

(4) Note that the testimony that LDS offer, either here on this thread, or an LDS missionary at your door, doesn't promise present-tense eternal life. Re-read 1 John 5:11-13 and note the "Has" references and the "HAVE" references; "eternal life" isn't the 3 degrees of glory...John 17:3 makes it clear that eternal life=knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ, which can happen right here, right now. For LDS, eternal life is something ONLY future tense (for Christians, it's past, present, and future).

now your getting silly, Know God, so a creed created 325 years after Jesus ascended to heaven which was so radical that they had to KILL people who would not convert to it, was not a dent in "knowing God"? God is restoring the knowledge that is necessary to have eternal life, true knowledge of God. Eternal life is more than just living forever, that can be a hell if done wrong, Eternal life is living like God doing his works forever. I'd hate living forever with nothing to do. Luckily, that is not God's plan.

(5) Finally, 1 John 5:14-15 is the context needed for James 1:5. We need to ask according to his will. I don't think asking thousands of times, "Is this your word?" over each & every verse in the Quran, is his will. I don't think asking about the Urantia UFO book, "Is this your word?" is his will. I don't think asking about Anton Lavey's Satanic Bible, "Is this your word?" is his will. I don't think asking about Bhagavida & Hindu texts, "Is this your word?" is his will.

Hey, Look, if I just organize the scriptures my way, I can make God say anything!
The scriptures in a book are arranged the way they are because God arranged them, even Mormons know that. 2 Pet. 1: 20:

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

You seek to interpret scriptures for others, you deny that my testimony is of God, God have mercy on you.

Beloved saints, if you haven't realized it by now, there's always going to be MANY, MANY who read these things and conclude "no" and MANY, MANY who read these things and conclude "yes." Such subjectivity cannot be the hope where we place our trust for eternal life.

I agree, this is too important to take a mans' word for it, for any man no matter how learned can be wrong, ask God and be sure of your answer.

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Seems pretty clear to me, to protect yourself from the antichrists and false prophets we are commanded to ask, to try to seek answers from God, anyone who tells you to believe them and not to ask, is not in agreement with Scripture that is plain and needs no Context form elsewhere in the Bible, as for me and My house, we will follow the Lord.

Go back to 1 John 5:8...the blood is there for an important reason: Real blood was shed; real historical blood that streamed from his body which was noted by historical writers. Objective blood. Yes, we agree, as John says, "We accept man's testimony" (1 John 5:9), but whenever man's testimony focuses on only another mere man, and whenever it winds up trumping God's testimony, what John says is true: "Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar." (1 John 5:10)

How can the servant be called the master? What a twisting of truth and reality, Joseph Smith was a modern day prophet of God, he spent his life and died testifying of God. Joseph knew that if he recanted his faith they would let him live. knowing this, he died true to his testimony of Jesus Christ, read these words, Joseph Smith's words and tell me that he is not a man of God.

22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

I will add my poor testimony to theirs, I know that my redeemer lives, I know that Jesus Christ whom I serve Came in the flesh upon the earth, to suffer and be crucified for my sins, I know that I am not worthy to unlatch the buckle of his sandal, yet he willingly died for me. I know this by the same spirit that testified to me that the Book of Mormon is his word and is Good for learning about him. I know though I will be persecuted and reviled for my faith, I like Joseph know, and I know that God knows that I know, and I will not betray God no matter what is said about me by my detractors here, know that I testify of Jesus my savior, my deliverer.

In the name of Jesus Christ, AMEN.

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