Posted on 10/31/2007 11:48:35 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
How to determine when Joel Osteen is speaking heresy:
If you want an informative answer you better learn to reason logically.
We need to agree on definitions first. That is why I said ‘define for me the Gospel’
If you and I don’t agree on what the Gospel is, according to Scripture, then we can’t ever come to an understanding of whether Joel’s message is ‘Biblical.’
He had alot to say about condemning and judging. He repeated said he was sent to save not to condemn. I see Joel offering an overcoming, victorious life available with God. I see your condemnation of him unjust.
Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 8:10-11 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
John 12:47-48 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Gee, this could go on for days. Tag, your it. (I've already laid out my detailed argument. You've said nothing.)
You could also listen to White Horse Inn
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/The_White_Horse_Inn/archives.asp?bcd=1/20/2008
Joel Osteen: A Case Study in American Religion
Sunday, January 20, 2008 Why is Joel Osteen so popular? Is he a faithful representative of the Christian faith, or is his message more about self-help and personal motivation? On this edition of the White Horse Inn, the hosts will examine the theology of this bestselling author as they continue their series “Christless Christianity.” Series: Christless Christianity
Your graphic got pulled, but...
When his lips are moving?
Really?
Matt 6 is pretty condemning to me... and anyone else who knows he's a sinner.
He condemned the entire crowd who followed him after they were fed by him. He condemned the moneychangers just trying to make an honest living at the temple. He condemned anyone who fit into the category of the foolish virgins, the unfaithful servant, those who put their hand to the plow and looked back, those who were unwilling to hate their father mother sister, brother, and lose everything for him, shall I go on? I fit into many of those categories, how about you?
This seems like a good, sincere statement of what you're really looking for. That's good. God will grant you the desires of your heart.
You can counterfeit fruit, (and you can counterfeit the Gospel which is what Joel and MANY other evangelicals, such as Rick Warren, do these days) but without the true Gospel it is just that -- counterfeit.
Now your starting to sound like a legalistic Pharisee. Just because Joel doesn't meet with your preferences doesn't mean he deserves your judgment and condemnation. I don't know about Rick Warren. He's never ministered to me. But Joel has. I've read few authors who use the Word of God as a foundation of what he's presenting as Joel Osteen in Your Best Life Now. His Sunday sermons also replete with God's word and are also anointed by the Spirit. The Bible also talks about not touching God's anointed, so I'd be careful about the extent of your condemnation of this man.
Right, so why don't you start that kind of reasoning? Usually its the prosecution who has the burden of proof so why don't you give us your definition of the gospel, if you see that as a sticking point?
The same Jesus that is quoted in the verses that you posted said “judge righteous judgement”
If you read the entire context of the verses that you offer, you would find that it was only teaching against hypocrisy, not a commandment not to judge.
We are commanded to judge.
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9)As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
(Strong's Concordance says "accursed" means: a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, and if an animal, to be slain; therefore a person or thing doomed to destruction)
OK, I'll bite. Specify which of his words were heretical.
Why don't you boil down specify what you think instead of referring me to someone else? I've given you chapter and verse on my stand.
I see vague, general, personally preferential condemnation and judgment here. Not the kind of righteous judgment Jesus was talking about. Not the kind James spoke of when he said about the meekness of wisdom, that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. .
If anyone is guilty about being legalistic, its those condemning and rejecting the gospel and biblical message of freedom that we have in Christ that Joel declares under the anointing of the Spirit.
Great, I'm glad he made those statements. Meanwhile the guy preaches, powerful biblical message under the anointing of the Holy Spirit. Why do you or those with you on this thread continue to verbally annihilate him? I think people need to be careful about "touching God's anointed."
Gotta run, have fun with your new thread. You asked a question, I pointed you to the answer. I now shake the dust off my feet regarding this matter.
For someone who throws around the charge of a "non-informative answer," you manage to avoid much in specifics.
What does Osteen mean by "know Christ?" What would you? That would get us a lot closer to defining what people believe the gospel to be; only then can we judge whether that message is biblical or not. (Note: Judge the message. That ought to be self-evidently biblical, but if not, check out Acts 17:11b, the entire book of Jude, and major parts of 1 & 2 Timothy, where the those teaching falsely are named. You may gasp in shock now.)
If it helps, here's my answer to the question. The gospel is the good news of Christ's perfect sacrifice, which by God's grace, He can apply against my sins, forgiving me and bringing me into His family. I can do nothing to deserve this; on my own, I am a sinner, and everything I do is an attempt to avoid this and run from the Lord. In other words, the gospel is the good news because otherwise, there is only the bad news of my hopelessly lost and sinful condition.
You say that you've found nothing unbiblical in Osteen's messages. I would argue that it is what is not in his messages that makes them unbiblical. There is no sin, only not living up to what God wants for us (which we can apparently fix by our faith, whatever faith means.) Christ is rarely mentioned, and when He is, it is not the cross that is the focus.
In a nutshell, Pastor Osteen's message is a positive self-esteem, Bobby-McFerrin-meets-Alfred-E-Neuman gospel that focuses on tolerance, superficial unity through ignorance, and the faulty theology of prosperity, and ignores these real saving and transforming truths of Scripture: man's sin, God's righteous wrath and judgement, Christ's perfect sacrifice, and God's mind-blowingly gracious free gift of salvation and eternal life.
There is as much of the uniquely Christian and biblical gospel in Osteen's preaching as there is in the soma of Huxley's Brave New World.
Hope it helped which is why I picked this up. Some have expressed gratitude. Somebody needed to stand up to this attack on a person I believe to be a godly man with a godly message. I hope it brings repentance to some. Jehovah-jireh.
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