Posted on 10/25/2007 9:24:05 AM PDT by NYer
The Other Christ: Padre Pio and 19th Century Italy, by the historian Sergio Luzzatto, draws on a document found in the Vatican's archive.
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The document reveals the testimony of a pharmacist who said that the young Padre Pio bought four grams of carbolic acid in 1919.
"I was an admirer of Padre Pio and I met him for the first time on 31 July 1919," wrote Maria De Vito.
She claimed to have spent a month with the priest in the southern town of San Giovanni Rotondo, seeing him often.
"Padre Pio called me to him in complete secrecy and telling me not to tell his fellow brothers, he gave me personally an empty bottle, and asked if I would act as a chauffeur to transport it back from Foggia to San Giovanni Rotondo with four grams of pure carbolic acid.
"He explained that the acid was for disinfecting syringes for injections. He also asked for other things, such as Valda pastilles."
The testimony was originally presented to the Vatican by the Archbishop of Manfredonia, Pasquale Gagliardi, as proof that Padre Pio caused his own stigmata with acid.
It was examined by the Holy See during the beatification process of Padre Pio and apparently dismissed.
Padre Pio, whose real name was Francesco Forgione, died in 1968. He was made a saint in 2002. A recent survey in Italy showed that more people prayed to him than to Jesus or the Virgin Mary. He exhibited stigmata throughout his life, starting in 1911.
The new allegations were greeted with an instant dismissal from his supporters. The Catholic Anti-Defamation League said Mr Luzzatto was a liar and was "spreading anti-Catholic libels".
Pietro Siffi, the president of the League, said: "We would like to remind Mr Luzzatto that according to Catholic doctrine, canonisation carries with it papal infallibility.
"We would like to suggest to Mr Luzzatto that he dedicates his energies to studying religion properly."
That's pretty hard to square with this:
John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, all who have faith in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
And then there's this (Acts 5:15-16):
"People brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter's shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil spirits, and all of them were healed."
And it's not as if anybody has "powers" independent of, opposed to, or in competition with Christ. Everything comes from Christ. It is through Him and by Him that Peter's shadow could cure the sick and Paul could raise the dead. I think we can agree on that.
Of course Shakespeare was writing at the same time and folks were always saying 'I pray thee', were we would say 'I ask you'. These days, of course we don't often use 'pray' in this way, nor do we use the second person singular (thee), except for religious or poetic purposes. The language changes meaning over time, pays to remember that.
Show me any prophet of God, any apostle, any believer named in the bible praying to the dead to intercede on their behalf. Show me any prophet of God, any apostle, any believer named in the bible praying to anyone but God. Show me the verses where Jesus instructed people to pray to dead saints so they could intercede on their behalf.
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
hmm:)
Show me the verses where Jesus instructed folks to type religious arguments on keyboards, and send them through cyberspace.
You asked why pray to saints, why not pray just to Jesus. So that question was answered - or, at least, an answer was attempted.
In response to the answer to the question you raised, you raise the issue of praying to people who "have gone before". And you seem to suggest that the example of Paul asking for the prayers of others is irrelevant because those others were "alive on the earth" at the time of his asking.
Now that may be a perfectly good objection to praying to the saints in heaven, but it is completely irrelevant response to the answer to your initial question, which was about asking for the prayers of others.
In fact, by your changing the subject, you delay our getting to know if you thought tht was a decent answer or not. I'm sorry, but I think of that as "Bait and Switch". It's not a tactic for straightforward conversation for conversation that explores and understands differences. It is more combative than discursive in nature. It is obfuscatory and confuses two issues and pretty much assures that the conversation will not move forward. And it risks raising the ambient temperature by calling into question the reason for the initial inquiry. Are you interested our thinking on why it is good to ask for intercessions, or are you rather, when it comes to Catholics praying to the Saints, going to throw up one objection after another like artillery shells thinking, or seeming to think, that if one shell misses another may hit and the main thing is to keep the barrage up and the enemy's head down?
Despite possible appearances, I don't mean this personally. I don't know you from Adam and recall no previous interaction. The lack of acknowledgment of the answer given and the changing of the question just stuck out like a doily in a midden.
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Specious; didn’t answer any of my valid questions. Fact is you cannot find any examples, so you are reduced to twisting my words around and making glib comments.
“She was a sinner like all of us, to be consistent in its doctrine in this area is a problem for your church.”
Hmmm, no. She IS the Mother of God. She committed no sin in her time on this earth. There is not problem with the Catholic teaching of this mystery. The problem lies with those who are ignorant; willingly or unwillingly so.
I am curious, would contact with the dead be a sin if it was not used to divine the future or influence future events? Just for say, a good chat?
The answer was (to paraphrase) was “we can pray to Jesus, but we also pray to saints.”
The problem you have is that you were not able to infer from my next statements that I don’t agree with that answer. there is no evidenceIf I have to spell it out for you more clearly that I don’t agree with their answer, by stating that I don’t believe in praying to Christians who have died and are no longer among the living on earth, then I will clearly state it for you by saying so.
**I don’t agree with their answer, by stating that I don’t believe in praying to Christians who have died **
Has anyone in your family died? Did you go to the funeral? Then you prayed to God FOR them, since they can no longer pray for themselves.
Please answer my question:
Has anyone in your family died? Did you go to the funeral?
You asked something like, "Why ask anyone to pray for you when you can ask Jesus directly?" An answer was attempted, and then you went to the "I see dead people" argument.
"Not agreeing" all by itself, doesn't move the ball, since you asked the question. If there is never any reason, in your view, to ask anyone to pray for one, then say so and prepare to defend it. Otherwise, I think, the situation is that EITHER Paul was wrong to ask those other people to pray for him, which would be consistent with your, "Why go to anyone when you can go right to Jesus?" argument, OR we have a Biblical precedent for asking others for prayer.
If the latter, then we can go on to the whether we can ask people in heaven for prayer or not. If the former, then we need go no further, but need to re-examine that question.
But IF you think Paul is wrong, I think you need to show us why. And if you think he is right not always to go to Jesus but sometimes in addition to going to Jesus also to ask others for their prayers, then I think you need to say that. Things are never as clear as we think they are, at least not to moi. Be kind to those afflicted with stupidity. And besides, the care and focus necessary to argue clearly often lowers the ambient temperature, which for most Christians would, I think, be considered a good thing. But then, it's been argued that my desire for clear, charitable, reasonable discussion is an indication that I have problems.
I'm sure I do.
And of course, I hope you understand that the Protestant trump card of Scripture will also come into play in a disputation with Catholics because we have a different view of Scriptural authority from that held by many Protestants.
That’s the same book that I just finished. Fascinating, wasn’t it?
By Ruffin.............worth the buy, everyone.
Pal, do you know the difference between the word “TO” and “FOR”??
You are right they can no longer pray for themselves. They also can no longer pray for you, or make any intercession for you. They could only do those things when they were alive on earth, in their body.
(And then he messes it all up by doing everything He can to show Himself to us. This is the only game of hide and seek where the searchers often try NOT to find the one hiding.)
A Saint or Angel is dead?
Once again, an interesting subject on a thread title, completely off topic due to unbelievers hopping on and arguing.
If you don’t believe in saints, just say so. If you don’t believe in asking for the intercession of saints, go start some thread about that and for heaven’s sake leave us alone to discuss Padre Pio.
He was a fascinating man, who lived a very interesting life, and studying him is worthy to some of us.
If you disagree, why start a big argument here about the intercession of the saints? You aren’t changing any minds, you’re just engaging in boorish behavior. How long after this thread started did this argument start?
You are all giving protestants a very bad name. Boorish behavior, pointless argument, and petty bickering.
Please stop it.
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