LDS defend the faith as Christian

The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 10/07/07 | By Peggy Fletcher Stack

[colorcountry]

Not only is Mormonism a Christian faith, it is the truest form of Christianity, said speaker after speaker on the first day of the 177th Semiannual LDS General Conference. LDS authorities were responding to the allegation that Mormonism isn't part of Christianity. Made by different mainline Protestant and Catholic churches and repeated constantly during coverage of Mitt Romney's presidential campaign, the claim is based on Mormonism's beliefs about God, its rejection of ancient ideas about the Trinity still widely accepted, and the LDS Church's extra-biblical scriptures. "It is not our purpose to demean any person's belief nor the doctrine of any religion," said Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland in the afternoon session. "But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first [Christians], many of whom were eye-witnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?"

{snip}

The day's sermons included many familiar themes, including the importance of faith, the need for pure thoughts and actions, avoiding pornography reaching out to neighbors and eliminating spiritual procrastination. Hinckley talked about the destructive nature of anger in marriages, on the road, and in life, urging Mormons to "control your tempers, to put a smile upon your faces, which will erase anger; speak with words of love and peace, appreciation and respect."

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

On another thread we were recently discussing centering and how that affects theology.

IMHO, that discussion is relevant here because some theologies center on the good a man does in this life whereas others center on the good God does through a man in this life.

I am of the latter view:

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:5

To God be the glory!

[Diamond]

Where in the scriptures does God say that He does NOT want His children to become like Him?

Where?

Isaiah 43:10 (King James Version)

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

There is no waiting list to become a God.

Cordially,

[Choose Ye This Day]

ANd quite obviously that has to do with man-made, graven images...statues and objects and things that MAN decides should be a God, THE God, worthy of all worship and praise. That is idolatry and evil.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with GOD DECIDING to share His godhood with His children, to give them all that He hath, to see them truly become more like Him, as he has so wonderfully and so repeatedly promised us and encouraged us in the scriptures.

By the way, we will become gods—it’s with a lower-case “g”.

[HKMk23]

...as if the Holy Spirit would somehow be our infallible guide to reconstructing Christian worship based on what we find in the NT.

PLEASE clarify that. Jesus spoke by his own mouth saying that the Holy Spirit would guide us into all Truth. You can't be implying that He's not infallible. You cannot possibly be opining that He needs help in giving that guidance. At least, you cannot be doing either of those things without being heretical, which I doubt is the case. So, more clarification of your precise meaning is needed.

---

Regarding the priesthood, I recommend a thorough reading of the New Testament book of Hebrews; especially chs 5-10 where the import and implications of Jesus' designation as High Priest in the Order of Melchizedek are laid out.

The writer of Hebrews, lays out the orthodox Christian explanation of who Jesus is, and what he accomplished, in a way that would be immediately understood by members of the Judaic culture, which is to be expected because Jesus life and work fulfilled and retired the requirements of the Old Covenant, replacing by his perfect sacrifice that way of imperfect sacrifices, and opening for us by his own flesh upon the cross, a new and living way, sanctified in His own blood.

As the writer says, "having boldness to enter into the holiest place by the blood of Jesus...let us draw near."

In the context, this drawing near is as the Old Testament High Priest alone could once, annually, draw near to the Ark of The Covenant, to appear before The LORD Who sat enthroned between the two cherubim on the atonement cover and offer the required sacrifices in dry-mouthed sobriety, and with trembling.

In teh same way, now, owing to Christ's position as High Priest in the Order of Melchizedek we may also draw near, but with boldness.

And THIS is the wonder of the gospel; that all the world of sinful man has been granted free and open access to that Holiest Place by God's gracious sacrifice of the Only Sufficient Mediator.

[Old Mountain man]

There is no enigma. You are making a mystery out of the beautiful symplicity of the Gospel. Do the best you can with what you’ve got and the Lord will make up the rest.

[Old Mountain man]

Think about it and then go back and look to answer the question: What has the Lord Jesus Christ given as commandments? What has He told us to do?

“Nothing” is not correct and neither is “Simply believe and have faith in Jesus” since off the top of my head I can think of four things.

[greyfoxx39]

FIP decoder ring

PLACEMARK

[Claud]

PLEASE clarify that. Jesus spoke by his own mouth saying that the Holy Spirit would guide us into all Truth. You can't be implying that He's not infallible. You cannot possibly be opining that He needs help in giving that guidance. At least, you cannot be doing either of those things without being heretical, which I doubt is the case. So, more clarification of your precise meaning is needed.

Gladly. And no, I'm not implying that the Holy Ghost needs help.

Your assumption here is that Jesus is saying that the Holy Spirit will lead *believers* to all truth *as individuals*. But neither the notion of believers in general, nor of individuals is present in the text. The Greek text has "humas" = "you plural" there. He will lead "you all" into all truth. Now who exactly is that "you all"?

Well, look at the whole context of John 16--it is addressed to the Apostles, not to all believers. You can tell that because of all the language he is using which is specific to the Apostles and not to you or I 2000 years later: "they will expel you from the synagogues" "I did not tell you this from the beginning", "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now". In other words, Jesus is speaking directly to the Apostles that saying that the Holy Spirit will come and lead YOU ALL to all truth, *i.e. the Apostles as a group* whom Christ is speaking to.

This more restricted reading fits the whole context better. It also makes more sense. Otherwise, how is it that two believers--supposely both with the same access to the Holy Spirit--come out with two different interpretations?

And I've read Hebrews minutely! To wit...on Melchizedek, let me ask you....what does it *mean* for Christ to be a priest "of the order of Melchizedek"? Melchizedek didn't die on a cross. Melchizedek didn't offer animal sacrifices. So what was it that he offered? And how does Christ share the same kind of priesthood??

[HKMk23]

Your assumption here is that Jesus is saying that the Holy Spirit will lead *believers* to all truth *as individuals*. But neither the notion of believers in general, nor of individuals is present in the text.

Got it. Don't buy it, but I grasp your meaning.

We cannot carry this further, for we are, each of us, in self-enclosing circles of faith, teaching, and experience, and you shall no more alter my thinking than I shall alter yours. Let us, then table this discussion util such time as we have attained our eternal rest, whence we shall each have more perfect understanding, and be the more disposed to bear with each other's faults.

For now, let us agree to abide in the admonishment of St. Paul that, inasmuch as we are able, we ought be at peace with all men.

I, therefore, bid you peace.

[Claud]

Got it. Don't buy it, but I grasp your meaning.

Understood, and thanks for the discussion!

And oh, to think of that joyous day when we stand before the face of the Lord, when we have no need to debate truth, because Truth stands in His radiant fulness before us! :)

[Claud]

Oh, and apologies for the overuse of *asterisks* and the CAPS in my post above....I’m Italian, I even type emotionally. ;)

[HKMk23]

LOL! No apologies required, at that point; I’m not put off by your usage.

You think YOU’RE emotional when you type; you should’a seen the post I DIDN’T post. I got well into an extended discourse, and heard that Voice... You know, The Voice that has great mass but little noise; like the sound of immense power at a distance; like the subsonic thunder of being inside of a dam and hearing/feeling the water roaring through the penstocks. THAT quality, but wrapped up in a gentle serenity as of a quiet, meadow-rimmed pond.

So, heeding the Wisdom of The One Who spoke, I scrapped it all.

And as for our future glory...

OH, my heart’s supreme desire — sought after even with tears — to be there; to have laid aside this corruptible mortality, and be found — at long last — in the visible Presence of Him that is my very life and my salvation.

Oh, my friend, I can almost TASTE it.

And not the least of the many waiting glories but to see Truth fully revealed; to know at once where I had thought rightly, and where I had believed amiss; to be done with the damnable “if”, and secure in the eternal “since”.

OH, and to SEE — to really SEE — that radiant Bride, revealed in a degree beyond our present ability to grasp. To see ALL Whom God has truly called “saints” from all ages, kingdoms, tribes, and tongues, and to be FINALLY, FULLY, and PREFECTLY ONE IN CHRIST JESUS; the utter fulfillment of Jesus’ own fervent prayer from John 17.

I have one great dread, and it is this: that the earthly striving between so many who are in Truth, like ourselves, brothers in Christ, may be the damnation of many. I tremble and quake that God may lay to my charge the damnation of even one, owing to some callous condemnation I might have levied against another of His saints.

I do not know why we two, along with many millions of others, walk in slightly varied revelation, but we do. It must be a Divine mystery of epic proportions; unfathomable from the perspective of any earthly mind. I can hardly wait to see the complete revelation from Heaven’s side. But, for now, even as we acknowledge our differences, and register the implications, let us never lose sight of what we both hold so dearly in common, and so let us bless and not curse, granting that we each have set our trust in Christ, for He alone is our hope, and our salvation.

By Him let us be wholly Pwn3d.

[sevenbak]

Oh my!

I've offended you!

I guess MY being shown that I do not comprehend how you look at Scripture should offend me; but it doesn't.

I choose to accept, that because of what we believe, we interpret Scripture to fit our beliefs - not the other way around.

No, I have thicker skin than that, but it's the constant same thing over and over and much worse repeatedly, that brings nothing but a contentious spirit. I’m trying not to play ball so much anymore, it's an endless game. I will pinch hit once and awhile, but take me out of the lineup.

[sevenbak]

It has turned into nothing more than a hostile, contentious, name calling arena that lacks the spirit of the Lord.

I'm sorry you feel this way...

KJV Matthew 23:13-34

 13.  But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

 14.  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

 

I would guess that even Christ would get admonished for HIS name calling!

Christ is God, and it’s his place to be the judge and jury.  However, He requires us to forgive all men and avoid contention.  I’m really trying to do better with that charge, so don’t take offense if I remind you that it’s his place to do such things, not ours.

[sevenbak]

...and Jesus Christ takes up the slack.

Not for me: HE's done it ALL!

So, in the final judgment, as John the Revelator tells us that we will be judged according to our works, please remember we had this discussion back here in mortality.

This has been good advice for me: “If ye love me, keep my commandments” Cheers.

[sevenbak]

Yeah, that abstinence from coffee and tea thing (works) is really a toughy isn’t it. LOL

Too bad you cannot take part of the ‘saving’ ordinances in the Temple if you’ve let the vile stuff pass your lips. Coffee and tea will keep you from the Celestial Kingdom.

The Word of Wisdom was not a commandment when it was initially given, but was given to the capacity of the weakest of those who call themselves saints.  However, it was/is a law of health and obedience and the principles it speaks of are closely connected to the blessings we receive from God.  Habits are hard to break, and things that are addicting to the body remove freedoms from us.  When we are enslaved to our appetites, our spirits are diminished and our bodies have more control over us.

To be perfected in Christ is a goal that I strive for.  I often fail, but I find that I get stronger when I overcome my infirmities.  The Lord makes our weaknesses become strengths when we put our trust in Him.

All the best!

[colorcountry]

So have you overcome all your appetites? or just the ones for coffee, tea, tobacco and alcohol? teehee

Be ye therefore perfect, even as the Father in Heaven is perfect...

Drink tea....can’t take part in saving ordinances, it’s that simple. But remember seven, Mat 15:10-20 or Mark 6:14-23. What goes in through the mouth enters not the heart, but the stomach, and is expelled. Christ was concerned with the change in heart, not the stomach.

You will never be able to prove to God, that you are good...He knows you are not...even in the small things. If abstaining from substances makes you feel all “righteous” that is simply another sin of pride.

I wish you Mormons understood the clear teachings found in the Bible. It is the word of God.

[Utah Binger]

Lurker UB here.... I need a bottle of red wine....oh I mean grape juice. I’ll just leave the lid off a slight amount so it can do it’s little thing. If I call it wine, it will have the appearance of evil. Also, that instant coffee in the Postum bottle works fine as we can then appear so sanctimonious. Oh, is that in my tag line?

Oh, and I forgot....Beer and cigars and a little nip of Jim Beam while hunting deer in Utah is strongly approved!

[colorcountry]

My sister and I are coming for a visit soon. Be sure there has been adequate time for that grape juice to, uh settle (or something).

Oh MY! But aren’t we the sinful ones!

[sevenbak]

Why are you calling Jim R. to this discussion of baptism? Just curious.

While I find your interpretation of these passages on essential need for baptism to be interesting, I don't find them historical. Baptism has always been a requirement in the Church of Christ. We will have to disagree on this matter.

Besides the many biblical references I gave, these references from early Christians on the nessesity of baptism may interest you:

 

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Justin Martyr, First Apology 61, in ANF 1:183.

 

"And dipped himself," says [the Scripture], "seven times in Jordan." It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." A fragment attributed to Irenaeus, in ANF 1:574, brackets in original.

 

"And do not think, though you were more pious than all the pious that ever were, but if you be unbaptized, that you shall ever obtain hope. For all the more, on this account, you shall endure the greater punishment, because you have done excellent works not excellently. For well-doing is excellent when it is done as God has commanded. But if you will not be baptized according to His pleasure, you serve your own will and oppose His counsel. But perhaps some one will say, What does it contribute to piety to be baptized with water? In the first place, because you do that which is pleasing to God; and in the second place, being born again to God of water, by reason of fear you change your first generation, which is of lust, and thus you are able to obtain salvation. But otherwise it is impossible. For thus the prophet has sworn to us, saying, "Verily I say to you, Unless ye be regenerated by living water into the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." Clementine Homilies 11:25-26, in ANF 8:289-290.

 

Nay, he that, out of contempt, will not be baptized, shall be condemned as an unbeliever, and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says: "Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven." And again: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Apostolic Constitutions 6:15, in ANF 7:456-457.

 

Also, here are some great examples of ancient baptismal fonts. There were permanent fixtures that were part of the communities. I'm also throwing in a interesting photo of a brass Catholic font from the 12th Century that will be sort of recognizable to some familiar with the fonts in LDS temples.