LDS defend the faith as Christian

The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 10/07/07 | By Peggy Fletcher Stack

[colorcountry]

Not only is Mormonism a Christian faith, it is the truest form of Christianity, said speaker after speaker on the first day of the 177th Semiannual LDS General Conference. LDS authorities were responding to the allegation that Mormonism isn't part of Christianity. Made by different mainline Protestant and Catholic churches and repeated constantly during coverage of Mitt Romney's presidential campaign, the claim is based on Mormonism's beliefs about God, its rejection of ancient ideas about the Trinity still widely accepted, and the LDS Church's extra-biblical scriptures. "It is not our purpose to demean any person's belief nor the doctrine of any religion," said Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland in the afternoon session. "But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first [Christians], many of whom were eye-witnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?"

{snip}

The day's sermons included many familiar themes, including the importance of faith, the need for pure thoughts and actions, avoiding pornography reaching out to neighbors and eliminating spiritual procrastination. Hinckley talked about the destructive nature of anger in marriages, on the road, and in life, urging Mormons to "control your tempers, to put a smile upon your faces, which will erase anger; speak with words of love and peace, appreciation and respect."

[colorcountry]

My apologies for any confusion although I doubt that the Dead Sea scrolls were original manuscripts.

I didn't mean to imply that the Dead Sea Scrolls were original manuscripts, just that they are far older thatn 300 A.D.

BTW, have you ever read this interesting information on the proofs of the Bible?

Even though the Bible was written on perishable materials and copied by scribes for hundreds of years before the invention of the printing press, it has survived virtually intact. In fact, the Bible has more manuscript evidence than any other 10 pieces of classical literature combined. There are over 24,000 manuscript copies of the New Testament in existence today, with the oldest manuscript dated at 125 years after the original autograph. That might seem like a long time, but by comparison, Homer's Iliad is a distant second with a mere 643 manuscript copies, and with the oldest copy dated at 500 years after the original. In their book, "A General Introduction to the Bible", Geisler and Nix compare the textual variations between the New Testament documents and their closest competition for accuracy, Homer's Iliad. Both texts were considered sacred, and both underwent textual changes and criticism of their Greek manuscripts. The Iliad contains about 15,600 lines of which 764 lines are in doubt. This means the Iliad manuscripts contain five percent textual corruption or uncertainty. By contrast, the New Testament contains 20,000 lines with only 40 lines, or 400 words in doubt, which figures to 99.5 percent textual certainty, or only one-half of one percent of words containing variants (Giesler & Nix 366 367). None of the disputed passages in the New Testament represent a challenge to any Christian doctrine or moral precept, with most of the variants being attributed to errors in spelling or slight differences of style.

One of the facets of Mormonism that is deeply disturbing to me as a Christian, is that they will denigrate the Bible and its origins in order to make the BOM appear legitimate. I hope you aren't doing that OMM, because frankly there is zero evidence that the peoples, places, names, or history of the BOM is at all accurate, and there is absolutley zero manuscript evidence!

[Old Mountain man]

No Mormon denigrates the Holy Bible. It is two of our sacred standard works. I think that it is often misunderstood that the Book of Mormon is ANOTHER testament of Jesus Christ. Nobody claims that it supplants the Holy Bible.

Frankly, I find all the sacred standard works to be quite beautiful and they all testify to the divinity of Jesus Christ.

[FastCoyote]

“Look, FC, I do not intend to read Ford’s book now or any time in the future.”

And I’m telling you that that is the definition of willfull ignorance. Why should anyone take you seriously given you you refuse to read a key historical document?

Does your refusal to read Ford’s work absolve me from ever reading or quoting the delusional writings of Joseph Smith (as seen through a peep stone looking into his hat?). It sure would save me a lot of energy (and rereading of the mindnumbing “And Then It Came To Pass” for the bazillionth time).

Seems like the antis should be allowed to say anything they like about the BOM without a single citation by your standard. Fair is fair.

[FastCoyote]

“Go and believe whatever you choose.

I claim the same right.”

I don’t claim that right, I claim if you are going to dismiss an historical document, you bloody well get up off your fat but and read it to see what it says. So no, we are no where near alike. I may be wrong in my interpretations, but I am certainly not willfully ignorant of material that is placed in front of my eyes.

But, you are just an example of the willful ignorance of Mormons in general, and one of the reasons I will never vote for Romney. I have zero desire to see Mitt bring in a horde of like minded people as yourself who take pride in putting buckets over their heads.

[FastCoyote]

“Satan can quote scriptures; no big deal.”

Even better, I think he Wrote the BOM. He’s the Brother of Christ you know.

[Old Mountain man]

Bucket over my head? Because I don’t choose to read a self-serving screed by a useless and long dead politician? You are deluding yourself. Now you say that I’m not free to worship as I choose? Son, you need to get back over to the DUmmies where your sentiments belong, not here among free people on Free Republic.

When did I ever call you names about your decision whether or not to read the Book of Mormon. Don’t bother, the answer is NEVER! IT IS YOUR CHOICE!

It is my choice not to waste my valuable time on a book by some dead governor. Wilful ignorance is definitely not my problem. I will stack up my annual reading for the past 50 years against any human being on Free Republic.

So, you go ahead and pontificate that I am not free to worship as I please because I won’t read your precious favorite book. I don’t care.

The fact is that the town of Carthage and every person in it was extremely fortunate that the Mormon Legion was extrodinarily forgiving and willing to turn the other cheek. With my temper and had I been in charge, Carthage Illinois would be an ashen spot on a forgotten map. But, I guess I am not perfect after all, just like every other human being that lives on this earth today. Good thing that if Jesus Christ sees that I have done the best I can, He will extend His Grace unto me and my sins will be washed away.

I am quite aware of the beam in my own eye, but the one in yours is absolutely amazing!

I will include you in my prayers.

[FastCoyote]

“Bucket over my head? Because I don’t choose to read a self-serving screed by a useless and long dead politician?”

Are you talking about one of the self serving screeds that presidential candidate Joseph Smith was working on before his death? Maybe his translation of the Kinderhook Plates, or his unfinished JSV version of the bible? I get so confused when you talk about long dead useless politicians with self-serving screeds. (my favorite - ‘God will strike me dead if you don’t engage in polygamy with me!’ What a pickup line!)

“You are deluding yourself.”

Coming frome someone who gets his information translated through a peep stone dug from a well, somehow this sentence doesn’t carry a lot of weight.

“Now you say that I’m not free to worship as I choose?”

Worship Baal all you like. Just don’t tell me I have to give Romney the time of day as a candidate.

“Son, you need to get back over to the DUmmies where your sentiments belong, not here among free people on Free Republic.”

With a mind as closed to outside information as yours, you are hardly free. Orwellian is more like it. Information is tyranny! Ignorance is Freedom!

“When did I ever call you names about your decision whether or not to read the Book of Mormon. Don’t bother, the answer is NEVER! IT IS YOUR CHOICE!”

I’ve called you willfully ignorant, the proof is in your statements.

“It is my choice not to waste my valuable time on a book by some dead governor.”

Fine, then don’t hold any of us accountable if we just make up things about you. Seems fair to me.

What are you afraid of? That just seeing Gov. Ford’s heartfelt statements of how he walked the line between the lynch mob and the equally nasty Mormon Legion might change your mind? Dear Lord, someone who fears the truth as much as you do must have either real mental problems, or be in the clutches of a cult. What happens if I slip a couple lines of Gov. Ford’s account into future postings? Will your mind melt? Will you turn to salt?

‘Wilful ignorance is definitely not my problem. I will stack up my annual reading for the past 50 years against any human being on Free Republic.”

Then why the shudering fear of fifty pages of manuscript? Are you afraid your faith in Joseph Smith will collapse? Are you afraid that Gentiles will be shown NOT to have been the only cause of the mass Mormon migration (instead being in large part the result of the bizarre egocentrism of Joseph Smith?)

“So, you go ahead and pontificate that I am not free to worship as I please because I won’t read your precious favorite book. I don’t care.”

Whooo boy, so afraid. I bet you would be reduced to a shivering puddle of school girl tears if you read even one sentence.

“The fact is that the town of Carthage and every person in it was extremely fortunate that the Mormon Legion was extrodinarily forgiving and willing to turn the other cheek.”

Finally! ! ! ! The admission that the Legion was a bloodthirsty group of Danites ready to blow the top off Illinois at the slightest provocation! Oh, but wait! That’s what Governor Ford thought too!

This is too funny. Talk about comedy.

“With my temper and had I been in charge, Carthage Illinois would be an ashen spot on a forgotten map.”

Oh man, have you stepped in it. This is exactly the situation Governor Ford faced! Now it’s totally understandable why you won’t read his history! It would be like looking in a mirror at the type of secessionist Danites who Lt. General Joseph Smith commanded and was trying to form into a theocratic mini-state. In fact, it’s the same type that Brigham Young pushed toward the Utah War!

“But, I guess I am not perfect after all, just like every other human being that lives on this earth today. Good thing that if Jesus Christ sees that I have done the best I can, He will extend His Grace unto me and my sins will be washed away.”

Jesus very well might forgive your sins. But not Joseph Smith.

“I am quite aware of the beam in my own eye, but the one in yours is absolutely amazing!”

No, you were completely oblivious to your beam until you wrote the above. I certainly have my own blind spots, but here’s the difference, I will never categorically refuse to read anything you suggest (though we all obviously have time limitations).

“I will include you in my prayers.”

I’m praying for you too.

[fproy2222]

go to the posting called:
Why do I need to interpret something for you?

+++++++++++++++==

You asked a question, I gave you the answer by telling you where you could find the original source, written by the people who believe it.

[fproy2222]

and your the one who posted from the bible about man being the head of the woman.
Sigh...

This merely shows what was in place FROM THE GARDEN!

There is NO ‘chain’ of command where man is taught by man.
++++++++++++++++=

the part of the bible you posted did not, as you say, have a chain of command where man is taught by man, it talks about the chain of command where a man teaches a woman, as Christ teaches the man.

[fproy2222]

This is said here and in a few places in the bible, and yet He chose Prophets that lived with many wives and concubines.

Sorry; but CHOOSING is NOT the same as COMMANDING.

++++++++++++++++++++

He commanded those he chose.

[fproy2222]

NIV vs. KJV

+++++++++++++++++++++==
They are both good. A lot of good men worked hard, with knowledge, to put them together.

[fproy2222]

I claim if you are going to dismiss an historical document, you bloody well get up off your fat but and read it to see what it says. So no, we are no where near alike. I may be wrong in my interpretations, but I am certainly not willfully ignorant of material that is placed in front of my eyes.
+++++++++++++
Never stop believing that you are right, and never stop looking to see if you are wrong.

[fproy2222]

Will you tell us why you think they are wrong?

++++++++++++++++++++
Predestination in any form.

from there own writings.

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What Presbyterians Believe

Predestination

[March 1997]

The Paradox of Predestination

Are we “elected” to have faith? Are some doomed to perdition? How can a loving God allow us not to choose faith?

By James Ayers

It is ironic that the father of Presbyterianism, John Calvin (1509-1564), is most famous for his doctrine of predestination, because it is only one detail of his thinking. The discussion of the topic takes place two-thirds of the way through the final edition of Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion, following a chapter on Christian liberty of conscience and another on prayer.

God gives to all of us the destiny
of transformation into the children of God

Still, all Christian thinkers must deal, sooner or later, with the relationship between God’s call and human response. Calvin’s conviction that God is in charge of all events led him to the doctrine that if some people are saved while others are damned, this must be because God chose them for these fates. Having come to that conclusion, Calvin was not shy in stating his view:

“By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or to death.

“We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction. We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without any respect to human worth, while those whom he dooms to destruction are excluded from access to life by a just and blameless, but at the same time incomprehensible judgment” (Institutes, III.21.5,7, Beveridge translation).

This is not mere fatalism, the belief that every human action has been irrevocably predetermined. Still, if a person’s eternal destiny is sealed, is it all that comforting to suppose everyday choices remain free?

[there is more to this artical, if you want to read it, go to: http://www.pcusa.org/today/archive/believe/wpb9703.htm }

[Elsie]

You can quote scriptures and won’t answer simple questions?

While you refer to scripture but can't seem to post any to make your point.

[Elsie]

...I will NOT any longer engage in personal attacks ...

I'm glad to hear that you shall improve your game.

I'm looking forward to it.

[Elsie]

 

 

KJV 1 Corinthians 4:17
  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

 

Perhaps you are hurt by the truth of my statement?

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KJV 1 Corinthians 11:2
   Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Perhaps you are hurt by the truth of my statement?

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 KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 

Perhaps you are hurt by the truth of my statement?

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KJV 2 Timothy 1:13
   Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

 

Perhaps you are hurt by the truth of my statement?

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KJV 2 Timothy 3:14-15
 14.  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
 15.  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

Perhaps you are hurt by the truth of my statement?

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Perhaps you are hurt by the Truths of the Holy Bible!

 

NIV Galatians 1:6-9
 6.  I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
 7.  which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
 9.  As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

 

 

 

ANYBODY???

 

Like this fine looking fellow???

 

 

 

 

 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15
 12.  And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
 13.  For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
 15.  It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Like THESE guys??

 

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

 

 

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

 

 

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Ephesians 2:1-2

   As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,  in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

[Elsie]

When did the Lord confer the keys to Prophesy upon you?

 

 

 

 2 Corinthians 11:6
   I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. 

 

 

 1 Peter 4:11
   If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Philippians 1:14
   Because of my chains, most of the brothers in the Lord have been encouraged to speak the word of God more courageously and fearlessly.

 

 

1 Peter 3:15-16
 15.  But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
 16.  keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

 

 

 1 Thessalonians 2:4
   On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts.

 

 

 2 Corinthians 13:2-3
 2.  I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others,
 3.  since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you.

 

 

 

 

 

[Elsie]

No Mormon denigrates the Holy Bible.

 

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Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor, in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed. They were subsequently published in Church periodicals. They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

   1 We believe in god, the Eternal Father, and in His son, Jesus Christ, and in the holy Ghost.
   2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
   3 We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   8 We believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
  10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
  11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
  12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
  13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

[Elsie]

Because I don’t choose to read a self-serving screed by a useless and long dead politician?

Are you talking about Joseph SMITH??

[Elsie]

You asked a question, I gave you the answer by telling you where you could find the original source, written by the people who believe it.

HA Ha ha!

Reminds me of an old vaudville routine...

---

"Between me and my brother, we know EVERYTHING!!"

"Well, then; just what the name of Marie Antonette's mother?"

"HMMmm....
"...I don't know."

"Here; ask my brother."