Mormon ousted as an apostate

East Valley Tribune—Phoenix, AZ, MSNBC ^ | Sept 23, 2007 | Lawn Griffiths

[colorcountry]

Being excommunicated for apostasy by the Mormon church is one thing, but Lyndon Lamborn is livid that his stake president has ordered bishops in eight Mesa wards to take the rare step of announcing disciplinary action against him to church members today. "I thought if he could go public, so can I," said Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who said his research into church history gave him "thousands of reasons the church can't be what it claims to be."

Stake President R. James Molina acknowledged Friday he intends to have Lamborn's excommunication announced to the wards at men's priesthood meetings and womens Relief Society gatherings, even with Lamborn now taking his case public. Molina, as well as officials at church headquarters in Salt Lake City, call such a public warning about an ousted member extremely rare. They say, however, church members must be protected from what discordant ex-followers may say to damage the church...................

[DelphiUser]

I Said: Actually, I saw a worse one in Iowa, it was ugly then too

You said: I don't believe your post about the Iowa debacle concerning the minister had anything at all to do with him changing denominations but actually had to do with the sin and pain that is caused from adultery.

Then you have no imagination, the actual adultery happened a couple of years before my family moved to town, people had left both churches over it, all you had to do to start a fight at the high school was express support for one side or the other, it was a mess, and yes, people were trying to show the other religion was "Wrong" by divulging things they should not have, I personally tried not to get involved, after all, I had not even lived there at the time this happened, but I said some thing in school one day, I don't even remember what it was I said, and BOOM you had people damning each other to hell and yelling that "it was a lie" and a fist fight before the teachers could break it up. I was completely bewildered, OK, I'm not exactly known for being the smoothest social person in the world, and you know why, but one of the teachers finally took me aside and told me the history. That experience was the most "Spectacular" and to think I got there years later, what must it have been like at the time this happened?

CC, you are free to believe whatever you want, about the church, and about me, however, I stick by my story, as it was told to me for the emotions were real, the turmoil and the people injured were real, and to be honest, I had not thought about it in years. your statement brought it to mind.

Oh, and just so fair is fair, I also know of many "Mormon debacles" of personal failures that impacted the church in negative ways, we are not "Perfect" and I at least am under no illusions that we are.

You said: Christians recognize that we all sin. It wreaks havoc on everyone in their own due time....even you Delphi.

I could not agree with this statement more, all of us sinners are dependent on Jesus' grace to get us home.

You said: There really are no "wounds" that you speak of when a Baptist girl marries and moves to a town outside her hometown then chooses to attend the local Presbyterian congregation. Your examples aren't relevant in the least.

Tell me, what do you think happens when a Methodist family has a daughter who marries a Calvnaist minister's son? That is also one I have seen where the discussions have been going on for amost twenty years, they are relatives, and I am not going to give names. The only cool thing about it is, I can always get them to stop fighting by brining up my Mormon religion, LOL!

Relevance is in the eye of the beholder, and if you shut yours, fine, you have the right to do so, I however, see the relationship, maybe I just explained it poorly, well it would not be the first time.

You said: Any Christian reading these posts knows very well that their own families or parents don't really care if they are attendind a Evangelical Free congregation or a Mennonite Brethren Church or Southern Baptist as long as their child is a follower of Christ, the flavor of denomination is really unimportant.

Um, it's a really nice version of reality you live in. I have seen many friends who's families argued about religion, and no one was Mormon. I have Non Mormon relatives who fight amongst themselves about religion. I had friends in Several different high schools (we moved a lot and I attended three) who joined the church only to be shunned by those they thought were their friends.

You said: That makes us Christian.

And the crusades never happened, the inquisition never happened, no "Christian" church ever supported segregation. CC, it's a really nice version of reality I guess because all the flaws in any religion have been transferred to us.

You said: Mormons however demand total adherence to the Prophet and to total adherence to Mormonism. If a child of Mormonism grows up to become a despised Methodist, they are ostracized from the community and the family.

It would I suppose shock you to know that I have friends and family who have left, some were even excommunicated, I have always treated them with the respect they deserve as children of my father in heaven, and at this time, all the family have returned to the fold, there are however still friends out there, I remain hopeful...

You said: We have seen that evidence on this very thread regarding me (who has left behind belief in Mormonism and now attends several different denominations and non-denominational Churches)

We have seen one person say hurtful things who I publicly asked to apologize, and have sent a couple of private FMs to asking him to apologize, and now he is all of us? That is just not a very Christian attitude you are showing there CC, forgive him and go on with your life, this is not my Doctrine, but him who sent me.

Matt. 6: 14-15

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Go with God CC, may he heal your wounds and comfort your soul.

[DelphiUser]

Even Moses wanted to know what to tell folks after he'd heard GOD.

Ex. 3: 2

2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Moses went to see a burning bush that was not consumed.
Joseph Went to inquire of the lord to see which church was the correct one to join.
Moses was raised as an Egyptian prince, Joseph was raised as a Christian farmer.
Apples != oranges

Joseph was told, but then you already knew that.

Elsie, do you and your husband both post under your login? For sometimes you post in a male voice and sometimes in a female voice.

BTW, your posting button is sticking (grin).

[colorcountry]

All those words and yet the Church schism you describe was still caused not by theology, but by a sin of adultery and people’s pride.

I never said tracer’s actions were “all of yours,” and then you go on to condemn me as being unChristlike (which I totally am...I am nowhere and nothing compared to Jesus Christ).

My God heal your wounds as well.

[DelphiUser]

All those words and yet the Church schism you describe was still caused not by theology, but by a sin of adultery and people’s pride.

Yes, absolutely, I did not realize that was your objection was that it was not caused by the Theology, even though theological dissent came from it. I will posit that most of those I have known who left the church did so for reasons other than theology, although, if they stayed away, they began to think that was the reason, it's easier to explain than hurt feelings, or disappointment at not getting a specific calling, etc.

I never said tracer’s actions were “all of yours,” and then you go on to condemn me as being unChristlike (which I totally am...I am nowhere and nothing compared to Jesus Christ).

It was not meant as a condemnation, but a call to change, and you did say that our opinions could be seen here by how you were being treated, and the treatment being discussed was his. I happily apologize if my words were taken as any form of condemnation for that is absolutely not how they were meant.

May God heal your wounds as well.

Thank you

[Elsie]

Lifted from material being posted by ex-mormons ...

There you go!

You really BELIEVE this stuff?? From EX-Mormons!?

Sir: You just should rely on the Official Record® that is put forward from the LDS Organization. No contradiction or disagreement is found there.

--MormonDude(Can't WAIT to face the day with the Restored Gospel® at my side!)

[Elsie]

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Sorry, Phil; but only JS will get to see HIM - 1800 years in the future...

Haven't you read this in the latter part of Genesis??

[Elsie]

Then you have no imagination...

You really SHOULD try mind reading; it can free you up to accept all KINDS of things!

--MormonDude(Free, free, FREE at last!)

[Elsie]

Moses was raised as an Egyptian prince, Joseph was raised as a Christian farmer.

If so, then he should have heard these verses, and yet he STILL accepted what he was told.

KJV 2 Corinthians 11:14
   And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

KJV Galatians 1:8-9
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

---

Perhaps revealing, are these verses from the BoM:

 

 

1 Ne. 1: 8 And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.

 

Moro. 8: 23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

 

 

 

[Diamond]

Thanks for the ping, MHG.

GALATIANS 1:1 . . . God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) {cf. 1 Thess 1:10}
<>ROMANS 8:11 . . . the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, . . .
+JOHN 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

There are many, many SETS of Scriptures, like the set above, that show various attributes, names, actions, etc of the One Being, God, Who consists of Three Persons. Another one of my favorite sets is made up of those passages that call Jehovah, "Elohim". Mormons have massive cognitive misfires when confronted with that fact. They can't handle it. Most of them have never heard of it, and couldn't find those verses if their life depended on it (which it actually does, in a manner of speaking).

Cordially,

[DelphiUser]

MHGinTN, Elsie, Diamond,

You guys crack me up, I can make the Bible (or any sufficiently large work) say ANYTHING if I just string together enough verses, from disperate places. It's kind of a low tech version of editing someone's voice, and sewing together words to make them say whatever you want. For example...

I could point out that by having this "Conversation" you are conspiring, then quote:
D&C 89:4

4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

by quoting this one scripture, after setting the context in which it joins the conversation, I could convince some Mormons who do not look any further that you are conspiring against the Church and that Joseph smith "Forsaw your very posts on FR.

The truth of the matter is that this scripture is the introduction for the Word of wisdom (a health code for Mormons for those who don't know) and has nothing whatsoever to do with people bad-mouthing the church.

Readers, If you are wondering what the point is? it's simple, since we both say the other is misleading you, you can't trust them or I to tell you the truth about the church. It's the old "I'm not lying, he's lying" conundrum. there is only one source that you can count on not to lie to you, about religion, and that is God, thus, I recommend that you Put our religion to "The Test"

Get a free Book of Mormon and if you don't have one, Get a free Bible, Read both, Pray about both, ignore the arguments here for they have been hashed and rehashed on many threads over years and years. There is a way for you to know of yourself, and that is to ask God.

If you read the Bible, and feel God's spirit and feel the testimony of Jesus Christ, then you know it is of God. Similarly, if you read the Book of Momrons and feel that same spirit that testifies of the Bible testify of the Book of Mormon, then you know of yourself and no argument can confuse you that the Book of Mormon is true.

There will be those on this forum, who will claim that Asking is offensive, they know not God, for he taught man to pray, in the Book of Mormons. In the Book of Momron a prophet has something to say about that.

Second Nephi 32:8

8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

Similarly, the Bible speaks of those who pray, but receive no answer: JOB 35:12

12 There they cry, but none giveth answer, because of the pride of evil men

There will also be those who will tell you they received an answer, and you need not try for yourself, but the Bible Commands us to try the spirits to see if they are of God by seeing if the spirit meets with John's definition of the spirit is "of God"

Dear reader, do not be deceived, if they say I deceive you, fine go to the one source of all truth, and believe not me, nor they, but verify with God.

MHGinTN, Elsie, Diamond, I really hate to rain on your parade, but anyone with intelligence will not listen to either of us, but to God.

[MHGinTN]

“MHGinTN, Elsie, Diamond, I really hate to rain on your parade, but anyone with intelligence will not listen to either of us, but to God.” LOL ... I am pretty sure that’s why you, Diamond, and you, Elsie, and I’m certain that’s why I keep posting the Bible verses in their context of the chapter and the entire Bible. Odd that the poster doesn’t seem to catch that obvious one, but then he is a mormonism apologist rather than a Christian Apologist. It does make me wonder if he is a misguided Christian, that he continues to miss these obvious things in order to chew on the heresies of Mormonism as if they are truths.

[DelphiUser]

I said: “MHGinTN, Elsie, Diamond, I really hate to rain on your parade, but anyone with intelligence will not listen to either of us, but to God.”

You Said: LOL ... I am pretty sure that’s why you, Diamond, and you, Elsie, and I’m certain that’s why I keep posting the Bible verses in their context of the chapter and the entire Bible.

Um maybe you have not noticed, but I post with links to the entire bible, you guys Elsie in post #728 and you in post #720 Diamond has not posted a scripture here lately that I even noticed, but these scriptures are totally unlinked, people have to look it up to see what eh context is, I know, from your perspective, you are in context with "their context of the chapter and the entire Bible", but that is only for people who agree with your perspective. Continue your post in denial of the knowledge that your perspective is just that, a perspective, and not reality.

You Said: Odd that the poster doesn’t seem to catch that obvious one, but then he is a mormonism apologist rather than a Christian Apologist.

Goooleeee, here come the "You are not a Christian" smear, couldn't see that coming...

You Said: It does make me wonder if he is a misguided Christian, that he continues to miss these obvious things in order to chew on the heresies of Mormonism as if they are truths.

1. I am a Christian
2. Mormonism is not heresy to God, just to you and people who share your perspective.
3. Truth is established by God

God is a God of truth and I am encouraging all to ask him, not me, this is a request that can't help me if you are right and I am wrong, but can only help those who actually take my advice. By asking people to Put our religion to "the test" By Reading the Book of Mormon, and the Bible, Pray about them, see what God will say about them. Once God speaks, our entire conversation is moot one way or the other.

If you truly believe the Book of Mormon to be false, you should be echoing, or even leading the call I am making here. You have not done so, so far in this thread, so you must believe something else...

In life, actions speak louder than words.

Just in case the lurkers missed it, MHGinTN did not just "Reply" to my post, for he does not think it is necessary to follow the rules of this forum when talking about people by pinging them, so he removed me from the "To" list. He Does this because I said something to someone else that offended him. Yes, he is that petty, actions again, who ya gonna believe, him, or God?

[MHGinTN]

Um, just wanted to note to you, the moderator, that what the post asserts is not what I actually wrote:

"Goooleeee, here come the "You are not a Christian" smear, couldn't see that coming..."
I mentioned 'mormonism apologist not Christian apologist', and did not assert that the poster was not or is not a Christian. This is the sort of strawman tactic that causes me to avoid posting to the poster ... and when I happen to post to the poster, it makes a 'Ooo, you posted to me' style childish response, so I just avoid it.

[Diamond]

Um maybe you have not noticed, but I post with links to the entire bible, you guys Elsie in post #728 and you in post #720 Diamond has not posted a scripture here lately that I even noticed, but these scriptures are totally unlinked, people have to look it up to see what eh context is, I know, from your perspective, you are in context with "their context of the chapter and the entire Bible", but that is only for people who agree with your perspective.

Your argument consists of an insinuation that we misrepresented the verses by taking them out of context. You did not, however, point out exactly how the verses were taken out of context. If they were misrepresented by being taken out of context, pointing out exactly how should have been a very simple matter. Instead, you gave an example of how something in the BOM could be taken out of context. That type of non-response to the substantive issue of who raised Jesus from the dead illustrates exactly what I mean by "cognitive misfiring".

Cordially,

[DelphiUser]

MHG Said: Um, just wanted to note to you, the moderator, that what the post asserts is not what I actually wrote:

I Said: "Goooleeee, here come the "You are not a Christian" smear, couldn't see that coming..."

MHG Said: I mentioned Mormonism apologist not Christian apologist', and did not assert that the poster was not or is not a Christian.

A distinction without a difference. You are at the very least implying what is said, here, let me expand your quotation so that all can see what I mean.

but then he is a Mormonism apologist rather than a Christian Apologist. It does make me wonder if he is a misguided Christian, that he continues to miss these obvious things in order to chew on the heresies of Mormonism as if they are truths.

MHG Said: This is the sort of straw man tactic that causes me to avoid posting to the poster ...

Are you saying you have never built a straw man? (please say yes)
Are you saying that I always do? (Not admitting, just asking)
Are you saying you never post to anyone using straw men? LOL!

MHG Said: and when I happen to post to the poster, it makes a 'Ooo, you posted to me' style childish response, so I just avoid it.

Calling me "it" or "The Poster" may be a Clinton style legal obfuscation, but I really do not think it is in keeping with the rules of this forum about pinging someone you are talking about. Simple solution, don't post on or about me, unless you want to keep the rules, otherwise, I will point out how petty and childish you are being, don't want me to point it out? Don't be that way. Refusing to address someone by name is petty and childish.

If you are going to participate on any on-line forum, you might want to grow a tougher skin, it's good for you. (you come on here and attack my religion constantly, and now you go to the Religion Moderator and complain about hurt feelings? LOL)

To lurkers everywhere: notice how MHGinTN now goes to the Religion Moderator, but does not ping me to his complaint about me, this is IMHO the lowest form of attack on a public forum where your reputation is all you've Got, to report someone and not ping them to defend themselves...

Well, at least MHG is being Consistent.

[restornu]

You telling me of the guy if I don’t get my own way I will hurle my natural man tongue on you!

I am glad he no longer talk to me!

...matter of fact I have found some delicious things from the Lord that I would perfect to feast on than be here!

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want but do NOT make it personal.

[DelphiUser]

You said: Your argument consists of an insinuation that we misrepresented the verses by taking them out of context.

Who is we? You have not even posted scriptures on this thread that I am aware of.

Are you announcing some kind of organized effort in which you are cooperating with other posters?

You said: You did not, however, point out exactly how the verses were taken out of context. If they were misrepresented by being taken out of context, pointing out exactly how should have been a very simple matter.

There were a whole Flurry of Posts between MHG and Elsie with Scriptural references, I was trying not to have a monster post by responding to all of them. I have had complaints from other posters, MHGinTN being one of them that my posts are too long to read.

I guess this is another damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, either I respond to it all, and I am to verbose, or I synopsize and am not complete enough, Oh well, I'll let eh lurkers sort it out, they are pretty bright you know.

You said: Instead, you gave an example of how something in the BOM could be taken out of context.

Yep, it was an example from the BOM because I get accused of mis-interpreting the Bible all the time, So I PURPOSEFULLY used the Book of Mormon for my intentional mis-interpretation. ANYTHING can be taken out of context, including posts on FR.

You said: That type of non-response to the substantive issue of who raised Jesus from the dead illustrates exactly what I mean by "cognitive misfiring".

Sorry, I didn't realize I was required to answer an obtusely (my opinion) worded question. My opinion, Jesus Christ resurrects himself by the power of God the Father which as a member of the God head he has. So saying that Jesus does it is correct, and saying that God the Father does it is also correct.

I know this was supposed to "Tie me in knots" but honestly, I did not even stop typing. (except for a bite of my sandwich) God and Jesus are one in ways that most Orthodox christians clearly do not understand while they still have separate bodies.

I keep asking people to pray, here is a good one, how many of the orthodox Christians out there have actually prayed about the Nicene Creed?

Most I talk to don't even read the Bible they say we don't believe, or if they do it is selected portions only. I challenge people to Put our Religion to "the Test" Why not put the Nicene creed to the test, study all that you can about it, praying, read The Bible with the question of the Nicene creed in your mind, then read The Book of Mormon with the same question, and see what God has to say about it all.

Diamond, I am saying to ask God, Are you saying people should or should not ask God, if not, why not?

[Elsie]

You guys crack me up, I can make the Bible (or any sufficiently large work) say ANYTHING if I just string together enough verses, from disperate places.

Too bad JS didn't know this, for we would not have the BoM, D&C's, PGP, etc.

---

The truth of the matter is that this scripture is the introduction for the Word of wisdom (a health code for Mormons for those who don't know) and has nothing whatsoever to do with people bad-mouthing the church.

Is this stuff 'Scripture', or some more of some fellows ideas?

[DelphiUser]

Sorry, meant to ping you guys to this,, Itchy posting finger I guess.