Mormon ousted as an apostate

East Valley Tribune—Phoenix, AZ, MSNBC ^ | Sept 23, 2007 | Lawn Griffiths

[colorcountry]

Being excommunicated for apostasy by the Mormon church is one thing, but Lyndon Lamborn is livid that his stake president has ordered bishops in eight Mesa wards to take the rare step of announcing disciplinary action against him to church members today. "I thought if he could go public, so can I," said Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who said his research into church history gave him "thousands of reasons the church can't be what it claims to be."

Stake President R. James Molina acknowledged Friday he intends to have Lamborn's excommunication announced to the wards at men's priesthood meetings and womens Relief Society gatherings, even with Lamborn now taking his case public. Molina, as well as officials at church headquarters in Salt Lake City, call such a public warning about an ousted member extremely rare. They say, however, church members must be protected from what discordant ex-followers may say to damage the church...................

[Elsie]

Irwin resigned from NASA and from the Air Force in 1972 to form and lead a religious organization, High Flight Foundation, in Colorado, USA. He led several expeditions to Mt. Ararat to photograph Noah's Ark. He has even retrieved some six thousand year old timbers from it, which his wife and four children donated to the Mormon Church in 1993.

Where are they now?

I hope they didn't make it to some Boy Scout campfire!

[Elsie]

IMHO, there will always be a law and prophets.

 

Ok...

 

Acts 15

 

 1.  Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved."
 2.  This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
 3.  The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad.
 4.  When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
 5.  Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
 6.  The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
 7.  After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
 8.  God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
 9.  He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
 10.  Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
 11.  No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
 12.  The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.
 13.  When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me.
 14.  Simon  has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself.
 15.  The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
 16.  "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
 17.  that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
 18.  that have been known for ages.
 19.  "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
 20.  Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
 21.  For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
 22.  Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers.
 23.  With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.
 24.  We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.
 25.  So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul--
 26.  men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 27.  Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing.
 28.  It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:
 29.  You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
 30.  The men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter.
 31.  The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message.

[Elsie]

Can you immagine what the Dims would do with this material?

Hell YES!!!

They'd see the "Temple of Fertility" thing and they'd ALL convert to Mormonism!!!

[Elsie]

 

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself ^adelivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I ^bsaw two ^cPersonages, whose brightness and ^dglory defy all description, ^estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My ^fBeloved ^gSon. Hear Him!

  18 My object in going to ^ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all ^awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those ^bprofessors were all ^ccorrupt; that: “they ^ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ^ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the ^fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the ^gpower thereof.”

  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself ^alying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, ^bmother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” 

1 John 4

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

 

 

It looks like SOMEONE did NOT do this!!!

[DelphiUser]

Neat quote, too bad it's not real, your reference (Journal of Discourses., 1871, p. 27 1) Is not in the format the JOD uses, and there fore cannot be found. (and I've seen this before, they could not back it up either). Try finding it in the JOD yourself.

Here, let me start you off with A link to the complete Journal of Discourses on-line

Better yet, here is a link to Wikipedia which "Should" according to the date on your refrence, contain the "offending" passage, it does not.

Let's see, other stuff from your "Page" Kolob is a star, not a planet, it is specific church Doctrine that we don't know where it is. the rest of your article on this falls into dust at this point.

Space aliens? Bzzt Wrong, although if you claim to be one, I might just make an exception to my rule of thumb that all of us were born on earth.

Just a couple of questions, when the scriptures speak of a throne for God and or Jesus, are they being literal, or figurative? if they are being literal, then where do orthodox christians think it is, does the pope send out space probes (that would be as silly as what you are saying we do)

When the scriptures speak of heaven, are they being metaphorical, or literal? (I could have a lot more fun with this, but you are, IMHO, sounding wacky enough now.)

The stuff on your page just gets weirder from there. I could spend lots of time refuting the baseless accusations from this page, but why? All those FReepers with a brain will see that this is the lowest form of a smear anyway.

[DelphiUser]

You are a deceiver (that’s a nicer way to call you a liar for falsely claiming I say there are no more prophets)

In your Post #568 you said, and I quote:

The Book of Hebrews was written to Jews who were familiar with prophets and priests of Judaism. The author’s purpose becomes clear very quickly because the writer contrasts the past method by which God spoke to the Hebrews --via prophets-- with the new way He speaks to us via His Son.

You further state:

Mormonism has sought to reestablish the Judaism system of ‘law and prophets’ … which Jesus replaced by fulfilling them and has thus become our Great High Priest and speaks directly to us via His Word such that we are not now to establish ‘different’ or ’new’ doctrine and covenants via ‘prophets‘ calling themselves messengers of God:

Your words mean things, if you did not mean to say there were no more prophets, then correct the record here for that is what I heard you say. I am as you know a very literal person. I take words to mean what they are by a dictionary definition and often will link in my posts to the dictionary, just so people will know exactly what I mean by the words I am using. If you are using alternate meanings for words, please help out the rest of us on FR by linking to definitions so that we can understand you and will then not have our characters impugned by being called liars by you.

... I noted that personal prophecy (uttered by prophets, whiner) is still in effect as with the prophecies to Paul regarding the sufferings he would endure, but a prophet to lead the people is an insult to the One whom you ought to have leading you then you wouldn’t lie and deceiver and try to create false attributions to people.

It's not a false attribution, I have just linked to where you have said it.

Jim, do we not on this forum have a rule against name calling? (whiner is a name), MHGinTN for months has responded to posts to me and several other Mormons on threads about our church without placing us in the "TO" line of his posts. I had thought this was also a rule on this forum.

I appologise for posting to you, I know you are a busy man, and I feel like an ungrateful guest in your house for complaining, but MHGinTN brought you in as an attempt to intimidate me (my opinion), thus I must respond and include you in the discussion.

I will ask straight out. Does MHGinTN have to follow the same rules of decorum the rest of us FReepers are required to obey or not?

And you wonder why I do not consider you to put your name in the ‘to’ line!

Because you are disrespectful of this forum?
Because you think you are somehow special?
Because you keep getting your behind handed to you in gospel discussions?
I could come up with more reasons, but I am sure you will now tell me why.

You Mormon Apologists are getting such good exposure for the dissemblers you are. Nice work for poor Mitt. I doubt you’ll get another acknowledgement this year so enjoy this one, deceiver. ... And I won’t respond to your other FR IDs either.

Ah, you have decided that you can now determine that I have multiple FR ID's (which you have asked me before and I told you that I only have one.)

Jim, In this paragraph, I have been called a deceiver, been accused of having more than one FR account (which I do not), and been accused of supporting Mitt romeny for President, when MHGinTN should know that I support Fred Thompson (but will vote for anyone opposing Hillary).

Jim, please have someone investigate this, if I am found to have more than one ID, please remove me from this forum for I will have broken the rules and do not belong here. Similarly, please investigate MHGinTN similarly just to keep things fair. I really hate to have to ask you to do anything on this, and would not have if MHGinTN had not pinged you in a post to me where he impugns my character and behavior on FR. I am also going to ping in an Admin Moderator in hopes that they can take care of this without bothering you.

Jim, thank you for your time and for this forum.

[DelphiUser]

In his famous Facsimile 2, an Egyptian papyrus which Joseph Smith translated, the Mormon prophet reveals several other Mormon celestial objects. Amongst them are the planet Oliblish and the planet Enish - go - on - dosh. Mormons believe that a man from Kolob, and his wives, are entitled to four annual (Kolobian years) space trips to visit the Temple of Fertility on the planet Kolob travel to Oliblish, providing he "maintaineth righteousness in all things". "

I ran into this Follower of Hinduism while in Taiwan (he had a neat british-like accent) who could not believe we were Christians, he asked me:

so you really believe this "Bloke" who lived 2,000 years ago and got nailed to a bit of wood is an all powerful God and that he is going to save you from yourself... after you die?

Any religion can be made to sound hokey if you rephrase sacred things in a disrespectful manner, and you don't even bother to Base your accusations on truth, Mormons do not believe what you just said, I know, I am a Mormon, you appear to google for stuff to make accusations with.

[DelphiUser]

I Said: I know the Anti's will tell you that Satan will answer a prayer to God, ask them for a scripture that says this is possible.

You Said: T a d a !!
1 John 4

1. Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3. but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Nowhere in your quote does it say that Satan can answer a prayer to God. Tada! yourself.

However, this is interesting, for My testimony of the church includes that Jesus has Come in the flesh and that he lives today!

So, according to your scripture, it is from God.

[DelphiUser]

(Maybe your buddies thought they had it all wrapped up in this thread.)

Well, I have been busy following all the Fred Thompson news (#1 in Rasmussen polls inside a week of announcing, hows that for a late starter, Grin)

Anyway, yeah, they could handle you guys, but then I'd miss out on all the fun!

[DelphiUser]

I said: IMHO, there will always be a law and prophets.

You Said: Ok...

Acts 15 <SNIP>

I said, A Law, not moses' law, sheesh.

[DelphiUser]

Hey, resty, who was it that thought you and I were the same person?

I ask because MHGinTN has now included Jim Robinson in posts accusing me of being multiple posters. Do you have any idea how we can prove we are separate people, maybe we could take Jim Robinson out to lunch or something...

(Jim, you are being included only because I am talking about you, rules...)

[DelphiUser]

I’m gonna Go work on my basement for a while, promised the wife I’d have it finished before Christmas (yes, Mormons celebrate that too.)

I'll check back later.

[VxH]

[The stuff on your page just gets weirder from there]

 

Not my page.  I happened across it while googling for Planck and Kolob.  But you're right, it does get much weirder from there, and I stand by my observation that el Ron's sci-fi material was much more entertaining.

 

[Kolob is a star, not a planet]

 

Planet / Star does not matter.  What's interesting is the claim that time progresses differently:  1000 Kolob years being 1 earth year because kolob "rotates slower" or some such nonsense. 

 

Is Planck's constant the same on Kolob?

[VxH]

[I know, I am a Mormon,]

Ahhh Weedeater, maybe you just haven’t made it far enough up the “ladder” yet.

When you can snatch the 1000 year old timber from the astronauts hand, then you will be ready for the pilgrimage to Oliblish.

[DelphiUser]

[The stuff on your page just gets weirder from there]

Not my page. I happened across it while googling for Planck and Kolob. But you're right, it does get much weirder from there, and I stand by my observation that el Ron's sci-fi material was much more entertaining.

You are correct, you don not necessarily own the page you were referencing, however, you referenced it, so it is your reference. Whatever, it's not "Your page".

Planet / Star does not matter. What's interesting is the claim that time progresses differently: 1000 Kolob years being 1 earth year because kolob "rotates slower" or some such nonsense.

Is Planck's constant the same on Kolob?

Planck's constant has nothing to do with the "Day" of a planet. Mars (In honor of your seeming obsession with Space aliens) has a day of 1.03 Earth days in spite of the fact that it is roughly half the size of earth. from the enchanted learning web site

Mercury Which has a day of 58.65 Earth days is much smaller, slightly larger than Earth's moon.

Thus, without leaving the solar system we can see that Size of a planet is not an indicator of how long it's "Day" is and has nothing to do with the actual passage of time as measured by an atomic clock.

Are you saying that no planet could revolve (Spin, not orbit) that slowly?

So we believe one day of God's is 1,000 Earth Years, so? It would solve the issue of God telling Adam and Eve in Gen. 2: 17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam ate, and lived to father children (or we would not be here) however, no man in recorded history has lived more than God's day (1000 Years). Thus, having that knowledge makes Satan a liar and God a truth teller (Which is as it should be). IF God's time piece is the same as ours, then how do you explain Adam's continued life after the day (Earth day) he partook of the fruit?

anyway, have fun and continue being fruity, you make us look good by comparison, Grin.

Off to work in the basement some more...

[DelphiUser]

"don not" should be either Don't, or do not, I apparently could not make up my mind and Spel Chek did not catch it for some reason (grin)

Anny body want a don not? /Princess Bride misquote

[VxH]

So time does not progress at a different rate - 1000 Kolob years being 1 earth year.    Glad you Deseretians figured that out.

Does that mean that Kolobians don’t live 1000 times longer than earth folks? Because, I’m pretty sure that’s the impression the author was trying to make.

Equating time with planetary rotation is consistent with the science of Jose’s era. I guess the polytheistic deities that inspired Jose didn’t know about the atomic clock, or even vibrating quartz crystals, back then.

And Planck’s constant DOES have an impact upon the measurement of time.

 

[Off to work in the basement some more...]

Very sensible.  Hell hath no fury like a woman...

 

[MHGinTN]

Just for reference, here are the cited scripture verses from Young's Literal translation of the Greek showing why it is an insult to the Highest Priestly nature of Our Lord to presume He needs or would delegate Mormon prophets to lead the people in this New Testament Age:

John 1:11-13

to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him;

but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name,

who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten.

Gal 3:26-29

for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus,

for as many as to Christ were baptized did put on Christ;

there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus;

and if ye [are] of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise -- heirs.

1Tim 2:4-5

who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 4:14-16

Having, then, a great chief priest passed through the heavens -- Jesus the Son of God -- may we hold fast the profession,

for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but [one] tempted in all things in like manner -- apart from sin;

we may come near, then, with freedom, to the throne of the grace, that we may receive kindness, and find grace -- for seasonable help.

5:8-10

through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,

having been addressed by God a chief priest, according to the order of Melchisedek,

7:11-17

If indeed, then, perfection were through the Levitical priesthood -- for the people under it had received law -- what further need, according to the order of Melchisedek, for another priest to arise, and not to be called according to the order of Aaron?

for the priesthood being changed, of necessity also, of the law a change doth come,

for he of whom these things are said in another tribe hath had part, of whom no one gave attendance at the altar,

for [it is] evident that out of Judah hath arisen our Lord, in regard to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

And it is yet more abundantly most evident, if according to the similitude of Melchisedek there doth arise another priest,

who came not according to the law of a fleshly command, but according to the power of an endless life,

for He doth testify -- 'Thou [art] a priest -- to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;'

7:21-29

and he with an oath through Him who is saying unto him, 'The Lord sware, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest -- to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;')

by so much of a better covenant hath Jesus become surety,

and those indeed are many who have become priests, because by death they are hindered from remaining;

and he, because of his remaining -- to the age, hath the priesthood not transient,

whence also he is able to save to the very end, those coming through him unto God -- ever living to make intercession for them.

For such a chief priest did become us -- kind, harmless, undefiled, separate from the sinners, and become higher than the heavens,

who hath no necessity daily, as the chief priests, first for his own sins to offer up sacrifice, then for those of the people; for this he did once, having offered up himself;

for the law doth appoint men chief priests, having infirmity, but the word of the oath that [is] after the law [appointeth] the Son -- to the age having been perfected.

 

9:24

for not into holy places made with hands did the Christ enter -- figures of the true -- but into the heaven itself, now to be manifested in the presence of God for us;

1Pet 2:1-9

Having put aside, then, all evil, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envyings, and all evil speakings,

as new-born babes the word's pure milk desire ye, that in it ye may grow,

if so be ye did taste that the Lord [is] gracious,

to whom coming -- a living stone -- by men, indeed, having been disapproved of, but with God choice, precious,

and ye yourselves, as living stones, are built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Wherefore, also, it is contained in the Writing: 'Lo, I lay in Zion a chief corner-stone, choice, precious, and he who is believing on him may not be put to shame;'

to you, then, who are believing [is] the preciousness; and to the unbelieving, a stone that the builders disapproved of, this one did become for the head of a corner,

and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence -- who are stumbling at the word, being unbelieving, -- to which also they were set;

and ye [are] a choice race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired, that the excellences ye may shew forth of Him who out of darkness did call you to His wondrous light;

[Elsie]

All those FReepers with a brain will see that this is the lowest form of a smear anyway.

Ok then...

---

Jim, In this paragraph, I have been called a deceiver...

HMm... I wonder why??

[Elsie]

I’d have it finished before Christmas ...

Didja say which YEAR??

(That's why I'm still alive!)