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Posted on 09/24/2007 8:16:13 AM PDT by colorcountry
Being excommunicated for apostasy by the Mormon church is one thing, but Lyndon Lamborn is livid that his stake president has ordered bishops in eight Mesa wards to take the rare step of announcing disciplinary action against him to church members today. "I thought if he could go public, so can I," said Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who said his research into church history gave him "thousands of reasons the church can't be what it claims to be."
Stake President R. James Molina acknowledged Friday he intends to have Lamborn's excommunication announced to the wards at men's priesthood meetings and womens Relief Society gatherings, even with Lamborn now taking his case public. Molina, as well as officials at church headquarters in Salt Lake City, call such a public warning about an ousted member extremely rare. They say, however, church members must be protected from what discordant ex-followers may say to damage the church...................
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
Me, too.
Members are also expected to abide by a strict code of morality. There is to be complete abstinence in sexual relations before marriage, and members are to have sexual relations only with their spouse to whom they are legally married.In an official declaration made by the Church we read,
The family is ordained of God.... Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity.... Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities.
Yes, I would certainly test them. Very good point.
The point I was leading up to is this: If you were visited (verification assumed) by God the Father and Jesus Christ, would it not be THE defining moment of your life? Of course it would. So, my problem is, why would Joseph Smith not be able to RECALL THE EXACT DATE this occurred? Nowhere in any pro or con Mormon writings/history is there a single mention of a date, other than “oh, sometime in the Spring of 1820”.
As Gordon B. Hinckley has recently said (paraphrasing): “If the first vision story is not true, then our church is a sham.”
If this date is the pivotal point in world history of restoring the Gospel to all mankind, wouldn’t it make sense that Joseph Smith would have this date burned in his memory, rather than only being able to give us a roundabout 2-3 month maybe period?
“Grig It is the clear teaching of the Bible that Jesus atoned for our sins and redeemed us from the curse upon us because of our sinful nature.”
But I am talking about exaltation which is in addition to salvation from sin and death and is related to our conduct in life.
I disagree with the idea that a person once converted is pre-forgiven and has no need of repentance and has a guaranteed spot in heaven. Paul later told the Corinthians that “Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation” (2 Cor 7:9-10)
In Hebrews it even teaches that a person who was once converted can fall away to the point where they are unable to come back:
Heb 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
In Rev 2 you have:
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write...Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (v1, 5)
and
And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write;... Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. (v12,16)
and
...thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her [that would be the servants of God mentioned above] into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. (v20-22)
It is very clear from this that even after someone if reborn, they can fall, and they need to repent of sins they commit or suffer consequences. Hence, members should consider themselves on the path, not at the destination, lest in pride they fall. We always have our free will, there will always be temptation in our mortal life and the chance to choose the downward path.
” Grig - “And again, if you read 1Cor, you will see Paul is very, very clear that fornicators like the member he ordered excommunicated are to be cast out of the church and will not be in heaven unless they repent.”
MHGinTN - That is not what Paul taught in chapter five of first Corinthians. ... ICor5:5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
Excommunication delivers them to the Adversary and hopefully the experience brings them to repent that their spirit might be saved. Paul goes on after this to clearly explain (using the imagry of levening) that the influence of a sinner like this can be a cancer in the church. He tells them to purge out the old leven (v7) and in v13 to ‘put away from among yourselves that wicked person’
If you look a little further:
1 Cor 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you:
Fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God, even those what were numbered among the Christians at Corinth. Christ came to save you FROM sin, not to save you IN sin.
Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
i was wondering where the game of ChutesNLadders founder got his inspiration!
ChutesNLadders has an interesting history. It was originally Snakes N Ladders--a traditional game from ancient India, which was brought to the UK in 1892. Here's a description of Snakes N Ladders: "Players travel along the squares sometimes using ladders, which represent good acts, that allow the player to come closer to nirvana while the snakes were slides into evil."
Hmm...Grig's description of Mormonism kind of sounds similar to ancient India's "old age" movement. The whole concept of an eternal regress/progress is tied directly to beliefs of karma & reincarnation & sliding backwards & recycling souls along endless paths. (Note, too, Joseph Smith's similar belief that matter is eternal & had no beginning)
This "kick back to the start" (Grig's description) is pretty common for games with names like "Snakes," "Monster," and "Wolf": A fantasy game, Monster Quest, kicks you back to the start if you lose all your HP ("Hit Point"). "Sorry" is another game to use this concept. A game for 5-9 year olds, What's the Time, Mr. Wolf has a part where if you get too close to the wolf at dinner time, you have to go back to the start.
Let's play a game of "Jacob's Ladder," shall we? (It's a trivia game)
First question: In Jacob's dream, was there ever any suggestion or implication that this ladder of staircase to heaven was of human construction?
Second question: In Jacob's dream, were any men or women shooting up and down the ladder/staircase?
Third question: According to Genesis 28:13, was the Promised Land (a symbol of the eternal Promised Land to come) (a) purchased by Jacob and his descendents by means of a downpayment secured through a Middle East real estate agent? (b) Earned by Jacob based upon a Flintstone-type temple recommend rock signed by Isaac? or (c) Given to Jacob and his descendents by God?
As to your interpretation of Revelations, well, you might have fun reading the additions Smith made to Revelations in his 'Joseph Smith Translation' of the King James Bible. He fabricated better than you so you might want to learn from your master the more 'refined' deceits to use.
As to your earning Salvation, good luck with that contradiction to God's Word ... there was never a candlestick in the Mormonism religion (you do realize what the candlestick signifies, right?) for God to remove it, so I suppose Mormons think themselves safe.
As to your 'interpretation of Hebrews --"In Hebrews it even teaches that a person who was once converted can fall away to the point where they are unable to come back"-- it does not teach that the one was converted merely that they tasted of ... and once the taste is rejected, the meal cannot be consumed lest they crucify again the body and blood. One is reminded with your posts 'ever learning but never coming to a knowledge' (as in relationship of 'faithing', the action word which imparts His Righteousness because you can have none of your own effort; Abraham faithed, he acted upon his belief, he didn't just believe and sit down to wait; God told him to get up NOW and walk the land promised, after Lot left him to follow what God had at the first instructed him to do) ...
And finally, I like your offering on 'levening', and clearly Paul taught that for the benefit of the fellowship in 'The Way'.
So, how does the church explain the conflict of its doctrine compared to the fact that Smith was only legally married to one woman, and yet claimed to be married to others with whom he committed adultery? Legal marriage is a state institution... not a religious one.
You’re embarrassing me ... a servant deserves no applause for doing what is expected of him.
Actually, I was applauding the wordsmith...is that allowed? But, the servant deserves recognition for inspiring the wordsmith.
Aw, garsh, thank you, m’Lady.
Does anyone here claim to know the exact moment when the HS entered into him or her? I doubt it, since a tree takes a long time to bear fruit and only by the fruits of their lives shall the work of the HS be apparent in them.
The change is gradual, from calling, to justifying, to sanctifying to glorifying. The new man is built from the inside out and is not overnight and all at once.
“Grig’s description of Mormonism kind of sounds similar to ancient India’s “old age” movement. The whole concept of an eternal regress/progress is tied directly to beliefs of karma & reincarnation & sliding backwards & recycling souls along endless paths.”
Only by totally ignoring all the meaningful differences, twising some superficial aspects to make them fit, and ignore the scriptures I’ve already pointed out.
The ‘straight and narrow path’ is a metaphor for the path leading to exaltation, The gate at the start of the path is a metaphor for baptism, and excommunication cancels out a person’s baptism but doesn’t prevent them from being baptized again, so metaphorically they are at the gate. There are no multiple lives or recycling of souls, just one life that progresses through various stages (one and only one of them being our mortal life here) and by sinning can stray off the path a little or a lot.
Do you have scripture that supports this view? I too would be enchanted to believe that I can live again, multiple times in multiple universes. However the bible is silent on the subject isn't it?
“FIRST, you added soemthing I did not write or assert as if I did assert this: “... and has no need of repentance ...” That was dishonest. In fact we are taught that if we will confess our sinning He is faithful to cleanse us ... and the burning away of unrepentant sin will be avoided in the process and the free interaction with His indwelling Spirit will be restored. I don’t appreciate you trying to put words in my post that are clearly not there just so you can attack them!”
I didn’t find your post all that clear on the issue of the need for repentance through one’s life. As I read it it implies that a person once converted would have the spirit of God dwelling in them even as they sinned, and because of that they would still be OK when they sinned and wouldn’t need to do anything about the sin they just did. If I’m not understanding you correctly, feel free to try explaining it again with less jargon.
Because I recognized that you only seemed to imply such things and didn’t state them I didn’t actually say you said them, I simply listed the ideas your post brought to my mind that I disagreed with and said why I disagreed with them. I suppose I should have made that clearer, so sorry about that.
Any person, at any time, has the ability to turn their back on God and conduct themselves in such a way as to exclude themselves from entry to heaven. Every person should have the humility to recognize the weakness in them and strive to resist temptation lest they wind up going to hell, when people sin they force away the Spirit of God from them and all people need to repent when they sin to get that Holy Spirit back. If you truly do have the Spirit of God with you and then sin, it’s absence will be noticeable to you.
“As to your interpretation of Revelations, well, you might have fun reading the additions Smith made to Revelations in his ‘Joseph Smith Translation’ of the King James Bible.”
What I quoted was from the KJV.
“As to your earning Salvation”
Again you fail to understand the difference between salvation and exaltation.
“you do realize what the candlestick signifies, right?”
It says what it is in Rev 1:20, the 7 candlesticks are the 7 churches, and in Rev 2:5 God indicates that church in Ephesus needed to make some changes or they would become unaccepted to God as a church.
“As to your ‘interpretation of Hebrews —”In Hebrews it even teaches that a person who was once converted can fall away to the point where they are unable to come back”— it does not teach that the one was converted merely that they tasted of ... and once the taste is rejected, the meal cannot be consumed lest they crucify again the body and blood.”
Oh it says more than that. It says they:
- were enlightened
- have tasted of the heavenly gift
- were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
- have tasted the good word of God
- have also tasted the powers of the world to come
- it also indicates they once came unto repentance by saying they could not be redeemed to repentance AGAIN.
Calling them converted is an understatement. Paul is talking about people who were once the very pillars of the Christian community, who have received so much light and truth that for them to turn against it makes them guilty of the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost and as such they can not be redeemed.
An unconverted person who rejects the gospel is capable of later repenting of it, and a lot of Christians have done just that. Paul indicates these people the was speaking of will never be able to come back, it is impossible to ‘renew them *again* unto repentance’.
~”And you KNOW this little tidbit, how?”~
Because I’m an expert on the subject of the LDS Church. People are not excommunicated for a difference of opinion.
If a person expands that difference of opinion to the point of working to undermine the Church, then that person does risk excommunication if he or she persists. But opinions within the Church are many and varied.
Heb. 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
No reincarnation. You are born, you live your one and only mortal life, you die, you are judged, and then you enter into the kingdom God judges you fit for and that is the kingdom you remain in for eternity.
“The kingdom I’m fit for”? Where is the scripture? I’m already in the kingdom of God.
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