The source of unity should be the Christ Jesus, the Son of God and Him only. One glorifies the house and the architect that conceived it, not the carpenter that merely built it. 
Posted on 07/23/2007 3:36:15 PM PDT by annalex
The source of unity should be the Christ Jesus, the Son of God and Him only. One glorifies the house and the architect that conceived it, not the carpenter that merely built it.
Observe how Forest Keeper argues his POV and how he listens and responds to us when we disagree. He is a Christian gentleman in his demeanor, politeness, and charitable warmth.
Then observe those who, as the argument begins to go against them start making cracks about the veracity, trustworthiness, or intelligence of their interlocutor.
There are a few on the Catholic and Orthodox side who could learn from Forest Keeper. I'm one of them.
Is writing an article obsessing? Is responding to an article obsessing? Who is obsessing?
Has it occurred to you to wonder why the settlements in New England and Jamestown are trumpeted in our elementary and high school history books and the establishment of Santa Fe, much less St. Augustine, FL is mentioned only in passing? It's not JUST religious prejudice but surely it plays a part.
IN my private school we started Latin in 7th grade. We used classical pronunciation and, as we progressed, hacked through Caesar Cicero and Virgil. There's lots of literature which is entertaining and easy in later Latin, and that Latin is what used to be used by the Catholic Church.
One poster of FR recently told me that he KNOWS what we believe and he doesn't need to learn it from us. I personally think that is a remarkable claim and commenting on it doesn't come close to obsession.
Replace the words Catholic/Catholicism with Mormon/Mormonism and I’m right there by your side.
Non-Papist doodyhead?
Just a suggestion ....
When you say "hostility" do you mean something other than disagreement?
Campion's assertion being basically "people say praying to the dead is unbiblical". Yes, that's what we say.
“Let the Catholic Church stop teaching that the Bible is mythology...”
This is one of many reasons fewer Catholics post.
There is no reasoning with lies and those that believe them.
Blessings. You have a really strong constitution!
Uh-OH! Incoming!
One of the things that confused the conversation is that we have a way of language that presupposes a lot which Protestants accuse us of denying.
I was thinking today at Mass, "Why did God tell Moses to stretch out his arm over the sea? If He wanted to divide the sea, why didn't He just divide it, for crying out loud?"
But because of what happened, one might say Moses divided the sea. And while that's true, it's also not true. God divided the sea THROUGH Moses.
Similarly, it is in Christ in which all creation holds together and it is Christ who is the head of the Body, the Church. How often do we say this during evening prayer? I'm getting to where I'll be able to recite that passage from Colossians in my sleep!
Yet, in another way, Mary who, by grace, gave the unreserved Fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum, and thus is preeminent among those who do the will of the Father, and so is mother, sister and brother to the Lord -- She who was at the foot of the Cross and in the upper room at Pentecost, she also is with us and we are joined in and to her.
Similarly no matter how often we recite and celebrate the Lord's headship of His body the Church, we are told, because we call the Pope the head, that we put the Pope above our Lord.
If we were to continue to use the kind of language we use, to express the kind of grave we enjoy, while maintaining perfect clarity of theological expression, we'd never get out of the first paragraph! We'd dive in at "Mary" and spend the rest of the morning explaining for the umpty-umpth time how she is subordinate in every way, ancilla Domini, and even then at the end some would tell us that that wasn't what we really think and because someone once so a grotto with an offering in it it MUST be true that we all worship Mary and pay her divine honors.
... blasphemous deconstruction of Our Lady ...
We should be clear about the blasphemy. In the case of our Lady it is a blasphemy of devaluing God's love, grace, and power. What makes Mary special, what makes many of us love her is entirely the gift of God. HE made her lovable. And since He did so, shall we say,"But Lord, I cannot love her because I should love you only." I can just see God saying, "Well, consarn it, you think I make creatures lovable and then get all upset if you love them?"
God divided the sea through Moses and brought Christ to us through Mary. We see a great work done in Mary and in the other saints who live to God, and we respond to that work, and thank God for it all.
The mystical connection of Mary to the Church Militant is John 19:26-27 and Apocalypse 12.
You done done it ag'in! You're on a roll!
One more time. I think if you actually READ Campion's post instead of interpreting it in accordance with your view you will find that he says, ah yes, here it is:
...thus rejecting the words of Jesus when he said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no one who believes in me will ever die."So what it comes down to is that we say, "Believing the Bible and what Christ says in it, we do not think Mary and the saints are dead." And what we get back is, "Praying to the dead is unbiblical."
YES. So it is. But we don't think we pray to the dead. We think we pray to those who live in Christ and the Father, "For all live to Him".
It's as if we said,"Driving 34 MPH in a 35 MPH zone is legal," and we got back,"Speeding is illegal and dangerous."
Gotta go drive 250 miles (legally). See y'all later.
We don't.
evolutionist
Theistic evolution: one of the tools of Divine Creation -- is an acceptable line of thought in Catholicism, yes. It presents no contradiction to the Scripture.
We are all Christians, yet we have disunity. Clearly, something is still amiss, and I contend it is our human mother.
But thank you. Maybe God, using the prayers of the saints, did a good thing through me for a minute or two. I do not dare think it was anything but Him -- He's mighty quick at puling the rug out. I can't get the words,"My might and the strength of my arm," out of my mouth and I'm tumbling over and over into the mud.
By Grace, it's HIS mud. Good for the skin and all ....
I hope.
Heh heh heh.
The difference between anti-Catholicism and anti-Mormonism is that Protestantism is at its foundation anti-Catholicism, while I am not aware of a single community of faith that derives its theology from anti-Mormonism.
Indeed. When I read the threads, I sense a lot of anger and outright hatred a few posters have for the Catholic Church. It is impossible to have civil discussions with some of them.
Thanks for posting this - it really puts into words what I have been seeing more of lately.
Jesus was with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration. Matthew 17:1-8
Were they living or dead?
MadDawg is right, this is a perfect illustration of my point.
Never in the bible when we are being shown how to pray are we ever told to pray to the dead
Of course, you are told, with absolute, crystal clarity, that those who die in Christ aren't dead, but have everlasting life. What fellowship hath everlasting life with death, DM?
If you really believed the Bible when it says that, you'd believe it enough to draw the logical conclusions that it requires.
My conclusion is that you don't really believe in heaven. It's a fairytale promise as far as you're concerned, not a reality that's so real, that it's more real than the world you live in. If you really believed in heaven, you'd be on speaking terms with its citizens.
If people don't understand the language, they should not come and argue, should they? We cannot let the opponent define the language out of his ignorance, even more so when we are perfectly willing to explain.
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