Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
I’m so thankful for your proclamation!
FK: You disagree with this part, right?
Amen. An awesome participation. Billy Graham said it something like this: "Can you see the wind? You see the effects of the wind...."
I would agree that scripture is not enough, you need the Holy Spirit, also.
It would be helpful to me if you would give the definition you have for how most men define free will.
What exactly are you saying is an illusion? Certainly not that every choice we see is an illusion.
Thanks..
I'm sorry I didn't mean to communicate that you weren't. Wasn't the point I was working with. So I'm kinda confused...
Free will being the ability to chose to follow God is what is in question. I do not believe it is possible for a man to do so without God working in his life first.
AMEN, Dr. E.
I don't either.
However, I think we're going to hear a different definition of the illusion of free will from the predestination view.
My point is that ALL men sin, even those who sit in high places in the church. The Pope sins. The Cardinals sin. Therefore, ALL churches are run by sinful man. Therefore, ALL curches are fallible. The only correct and true measure of Spiritual guidance is the Scripture of God. I am aware of my sin, so the Holy Spirit corrects me in my walk with Jesus. If I make a mis-statement, I can go to the scriptures to find correction. Do you see my point? I trust the Holy Spirit much more than I trust ANY man.
That IS the predestination view. I am a Presbyterian elder. I believe in predestination.
Better yet, read “The Bondage of the Will” by Martin Luther. He presents both sides of Free will.
They too can go to the Scriptures, they too can be corrected by the Holy Spirit, etc.. They sin; you sin. They err; you err.
I'm really not trying to be facetious. Just saying that trying to remove fallible men from your religion leaves you with one fallible man.
Maybe that's an improvement in your view? :)
Also, Chosen by God (RC Sproul), RC gives examples of famous men that represent both sides of the controversy. It is a quick read, but thought provoking.
Thanks, I did not recognize Perhaps I am confusing predestination of Calvinism vs. other theologies.
Does your church also teach double predestination, irresistable grace, total depravity... ?
By the way: What the dickens are you doing in a fallible church? :)
Worship is, narrowly defined, not physical.
But the outward manifestations ought to be very obvious. I would not consider somebody in full party mode on Girls Gone Wild not to be worshiping. Somebody cheering at the local college football game is probably not worshiping. They may be praying to God for the next touchdown or to stop the field goal, but not what I’d consider worship.
The Israelites’ worship throught the OT provides a model that we might consider.
The idea of robot slaves is directly opposed to the Biblical precepts of free will.
God does not abandon us, not even when we act up and piss off all around us. We abandon God.
Men do not control their own destiny because they are men. They control their own destiny because that’s the system that was set up for us.
Have you ever gone to anyone for spiritual counseling or direction?
“God created Satan and nothing Satan does is outside God’s control.”
Are you saying that God is the cause and the instigator of evil upon the Earth?
Impossible. We are God's will, whether we acknowledge that fact or not.
Paul and the Gospels teach this throughout Scripture. The OT brims with this understanding. And yet men still presume to think they can fly if only they can flap their arms hard enough.
"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." -- 1 Corinthians 15:10
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13
"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." -- Jeremiah 10:23
"I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me." -- Psalm 57:2
"The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD." -- Proverbs 16:33
""For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7 "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -- Psalm 65:4
It's all there on the written page for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. You can read it, too, D-fendr. Just lose the spectacles of ego and let the sovereignty of God come into focus. It's a glorious sight.
I'm sure you're not a fan of Luther, but read what he has to say about free will...
"Furthermore, I have the comfortable certainty that I please God, not by reason of the merit of my works, but by reason of His merciful favour promised to me; so that, if I work too little, or badly, He does not impute it to me, but with fatherly compassion pardons me and makes me better. This is the glorying of all the saints in their God." -- Martin Luther, "Bondage of the Will" -- (xviii) Of the comfort of knowing that salvation does not depend on free-will' (783)"I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not want 'free-will' to be given me, nor anything to be left in my own hands to enable me to endeavour after salvation; not merely because in face of so many dangers, and adversities, and assaults of devils, I could not stand my ground and hold fast my 'free-will' (for one devil is stronger than all men, and on these terms no man could be saved) ; but because, even were there no dangers, adversities, or devils, I should still be forced to labour with no guarantee of success, and to beat my fists at the air. If I lived and worked to all eternity, my conscience would never reach comfortable certainty as to how much it must do to satisfy God, Whatever work I had done, there would still be a nagging doubt' as to whether it pleased God, or whether He required something more. The experience of all who seek righteousness by works proves that; and I learned it well enough myself over a period of many years, to my own great hurt. But now that God has taken my salvation out of the control of my own will, and put it under the control of His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running, but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfort¬able certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is also great and powerful, so that no devils or opposition can break Him or pluck me from Him. `No one,´ He says, `shall pluck them out of my hand, because my Father which gave them me is greater than all´ (John 10.28-29). Thus it is that, if not all, yet some, indeed many, are saved; whereas, by the power of ´free-will´ none at all could be saved, but every one of us would perish.
And finally Job...
In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind." - Job 12:9-10""Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.