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To: D-fendr; Forest Keeper; xzins; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; suzyjaruki; HarleyD; Kitty Mittens; ...
Most define free will as the ability to thwart God's will.

Impossible. We are God's will, whether we acknowledge that fact or not.

Paul and the Gospels teach this throughout Scripture. The OT brims with this understanding. And yet men still presume to think they can fly if only they can flap their arms hard enough.

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -- Psalm 65:4

"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." -- 1 Corinthians 15:10


"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13


"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." -- Jeremiah 10:23


"I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me." -- Psalm 57:2


"The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD." -- Proverbs 16:33


""For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7

It's all there on the written page for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. You can read it, too, D-fendr. Just lose the spectacles of ego and let the sovereignty of God come into focus. It's a glorious sight.

I'm sure you're not a fan of Luther, but read what he has to say about free will...

"I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not want 'free-will' to be given me, nor anything to be left in my own hands to enable me to endeavour after salvation; not merely because in face of so many dangers, and adversities, and assaults of devils, I could not stand my ground and hold fast my 'free-will' (for one devil is stronger than all men, and on these terms no man could be saved) ; but because, even were there no dangers, adversities, or devils, I should still be forced to labour with no guarantee of success, and to beat my fists at the air. If I lived and worked to all eternity, my conscience would never reach comfortable certainty as to how much it must do to satisfy God, Whatever work I had done, there would still be a nagging doubt' as to whether it pleased God, or whether He required something more. The experience of all who seek righteousness by works proves that; and I learned it well enough myself over a period of many years, to my own great hurt. But now that God has taken my salvation out of the control of my own will, and put it under the control of His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running, but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfort¬able certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is also great and powerful, so that no devils or opposition can break Him or pluck me from Him. `No one,´ He says, `shall pluck them out of my hand, because my Father which gave them me is greater than all´ (John 10.28-29). Thus it is that, if not all, yet some, indeed many, are saved; whereas, by the power of ´free-will´ none at all could be saved, but every one of us would perish.

"Furthermore, I have the comfortable certainty that I please God, not by reason of the merit of my works, but by reason of His merciful favour promised to me; so that, if I work too little, or badly, He does not impute it to me, but with fatherly compassion pardons me and makes me better. This is the glorying of all the saints in their God." -- Martin Luther, "Bondage of the Will" -- (xviii) Of the comfort of knowing that salvation does not depend on free-will' (783)

And finally Job...

""Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?

In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind." - Job 12:9-10


3,560 posted on 08/21/2007 4:03:15 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Most define free will as the ability to thwart God's will.

I'm not most then. Or, I wouldn't say this is how most men define it, but rather an error in construct. Anyway, the rest becomes moot for me.

thanks for your reply

3,565 posted on 08/21/2007 4:23:52 PM PDT by D-fendr
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