Posted on 07/10/2007 8:57:47 AM PDT by f150sound
LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.
In the latest document — formulated as five questions and answers — the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II's ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been "erroneous or ambiguous" and had prompted confusion and doubt.
It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, "Dominus Iesus," which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the "means of salvation."
"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," the document said. The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles.
“First, because the Mormons believe that the Church apostasized after the death of the apostles and became the “Church of the Devil.” Mormonism then claims that the true church was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith in the 1820s. Their belief that the Church was utterly lost in damnable error for some 1500 years would make a claim of unbroken apostolic succession impossible (some Mormon correct me here if I’ve got that wrong);”
You are close. We do ascribe to a concept we call the “Great Apostacy,” and what became known as the Catholic Church was, indeed, part of this apostacy.
We do believe that the apostolic authority, lost during the Apostacy, was restored through Joseph Smith by Peter, James, and John.
We do -NOT- believe that the Catholic Church ever became the “church of the devil.” That is an opinion held by some old-fashioned Mormons, but it is not LDS doctrine. In LDS terms, the “church of the devil” refers to those who work to oppose the sincere followers of Christ - and both groups transcend ecumenical barriers.
Best regards.
So you are under the misconception that this cannot apply to the Roman Catholics?
bump
I'm not Roman Catholic but I've heard self-identified Protestants here on Free Republic claim that dozens of times.
I’ve often figured liberalism’s rituals (excessive preoccupation with “fitness”, “going green,” etc.) were modernists’ way of “earning salvation,” (not that that’s what Catholics are ACTUALLY doing), but I must credit the comic strip “Prickly City” for the notion of Carbon Credits as indulgences for non-Catholic modernists.
Now why would someone who disdains Christian teaching even be interested in such a thread except to sow discord?
And who would that ultimately serve?
I'd never heard that before! But I bet if we all start saying so loudly enough, we could really ruin some liberal's day. And that's always a good thing!
~”What I don’t understand is why people get so worked up about what someone else says about whether they’re saved or not. If you don’t agree with their view, why should you care what they say?”~
IMO, I find it’s often a sort of “ecclesiastical penis-envy.” In most cases, the fervor tends to extend from a sense of defensiveness and inferiority.
To share one’s faith is admirable, and everybody should engage in it. To hate, demean, or bash your brother because he refuses to accept your faith is certainly un-Christian.
~”It is a mortal sin in the Catholic religion to worship any man other than Jesus Christ.”~
I’m not looking for a fight; but I am curious. When I was an LDS missionary in Italy, I would very frequently visit with Catholics in their homes. I think maybe a third of the homes I visited with religious artifacts in them actually had a picture of Christ. The rest had enshrined a picture of the Virgin Mary or Padre Pio or another local patron saint, and very often, this was the individual to whom they prayed.
Is this not worship? Is prayer to a saint a different act than worship of that saint? If so, then what is the purpose of prayer to and reverence toward the saint? It seems to me that such figures would detract from the importance of Christ in the individual’s life. Your thoughts?
I will have to start mentioning this to some green weenies I know. If their head doesn’t explode, it should be intersting!
I think what we have here is a difference in our definition of "church."
All Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church which is spoken of in the Nicene Creed, which every one of us recites every Sunday: you can find that HERE, and it's well worth reading in its entirety.
As the Catechism explains, we believe that one ordinarily joins this church by Baptism. Thus all who are baptized are, in a fundamental sense, Catholic. But not all the baptized hold and believe the fullness of the Catholic faith; yet these too are members of this One Church, exactly to the degree that they do profess her Faith (one Faith, ine Lord, one Baptism.)
So it's not an on/off position. It's a matter of degrees.
To see this perspective, you can read this in the Catechism:
"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."
Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."
With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."
My dear husband, who is without question a better Christian than I am, by far, was baptized in the Baptist Church and also in the Orthodox Church. (Double dunkin'!) Just by virtue of baptism, the Catholic Church would say he is certainly, but imperfectly, Catholic.
(Ducking a flying biscuit....)
Thank you for your clarifying note, which I appreciate. This is intersting to me.
So, would it be correct to say that the LDS believes that it posesses an apostolic succession which is “restored” (after a 1500 year hiatus) rather than “unbroken”?
~”As will our cannibalism. Don’t forget that little detail about us Catholics.”~
Yes, Catholic cannibalism is famous, but that’s not the coolest doctrine around. Evidently, we Mormons believe that God has endless celestial sex with his millions of wives on the Starbase Kolob.
~”Anyway, with a very few exceptions (JW’s, Mormons, etc), Protestant baptisms are recognized as valid by the Catholic Church. That means that every Protestant is *actually* a baptized member of the (Catholic) Church, whether he or she knows it, admits it, or not.”~
What is the difference, in the Catholic view, between a Protestant baptism and a JW, Mormon, etc. baptism?
~”I’m just wondering what the RC freepers would say if another brand of Christianity made such statements regarding them.”~
We Mormons say essentially the same thing about all other Churches, including the Catholic Church.
The RC freepers are among the few who don’t generally take it personally. They’re usually the only ones who I can have a decent conversation about religion with, and not have them accuse me of “following the cult of Joe Smith.”
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.
But that has nothing to do with the original poster's claim which was that "Protestant Leaders Do Not Even Think Catholics Are Christian...ho hum"
And my reply was that for 50 years as a Southern Baptist which is pretty darn Protestant by any measure that I had never personally heard that.
Protestants as a rule are not big on saints, icons, confession, Mary as diety and in particular priests as conduits to God but that does not mean that many and in particular many church leaders find Catholics non-Christian.
One can find FReepers who say anything but none are protestant leaders or even maybe not Christians anyway for thjat matter. Some FReepers say anything just to stir the pot.
Now this Pope who I generally like has said I am not of the true church. That's fine. I don't much care for everything he says but I do like most but in the end his proclaimations mean nothing to me like they ought to for a Catholic member.
My own personal opinion is that I prefer Orthodox or Catholic but find Charismatics the strongest faith believers in today's Christendom. Very few milquetoast good works only Charismatics. I am urban Southern Baptist because I am most comfortable in that church for my wife and family....
I find many Catholics(not all but quite a few in my family) place less emphasis on behavior and old testament morality than I was raised with and consider forgiveness from God through their priest too convenient....that is just my opinion...not a smear...that is their version of Jesus's word and they are entitled to it. Many modern Protestants are far less appealing to me than old school Catholics for sure....Episcopalians, Disciples of Christ, United Methodists, Presbyterian Church USA, Congregational, United Church of Christ, most Lutheran, and many others are basically captured by liberal good works only secularists by any other name. The same folks who took the Christian out of the YWCA and have feminized the YMCA and wish to de-Christianize it too.
It’s hard to mock the Catholic church anymore than the pope mocks it.
Coming from a human that insists on the worship of other humans, this is laughable.
They hang pagan titles like ‘queen of heaven (hell is the abode of the queen of heaven), and mother of god (Tammuz is the god) on the Lord’s earthly mother, and then they want to be taken seriously.
Strange Fire!
Did these Italians admit to worshipping (in the sense of worshipping Christ) these things?
Freegards
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