Preaching a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Weakens the Church

Well, since they all parts together make up a lighter, can call it a lighter when all parts come together as such.

So, when all the parts of a lighter are assembled, you can call the striker wheel the lighter?

This is of course assuming that all of Israel has come together. Hosea argues otherwise.

The word 'Jew' didn't come into play until after the division. If the word changed with usage, then the word Jew can very well now refer to all 12 tribes, since all 12 were back in the land when the Lord appeared. Words change with usage and over time. As it was, Jew didn't refer to only one tribe in the first place! It refered to at least 3, Judah, Benjamin and Levi. Over time it came to refer to others as well when they came together in Palestine.

That's right, the word "Jew" referred to the House of Judah (southern kingdom) composed of Judah, Benjamin and their allotment of Levite priests and teachers.

Because there were two tribes, and priests, in the House of Judah, you presume that all tribes are therefore a part of Judah?

Well, you are pretty blind to the historical facts. Members of those same tribes were in the South when the Southern Kingdom fell. So all members of the 12 tribes were present in the Palestine when Ezra came back. The 'lost' house of Israel was present in Palestine when Christ was present and Peter refers to them crucifing their Messiah. So, the fact is, those tribes are in Palestine at the time of Christ and are known as Jews as is Judah and Benajamin.

Some members of the northern kingdom did indeed go to Judah to get away from he ubGodly practices of the House of Israel. There are a couple references to people belonging to northern tribes in the Gospels.

So what?

You continue to have population problems. Either the House of Israel were essentially wiped out, contrary to God promise and Hosea 1:10-11, or the population estimated for Palestine as a whole during that period must have been much greater than 500,000.

The Two Kingdoms were separated and never reunited as a Kingdom. But the individual members from each tribe did intermingle and return together as single people in Palestine, not individual tribes. So what is clear is that you have a very confused notion of both Biblical history and prophecy.

You still have population problems or God breaking His promise, not to mention Hosea problems.

The kingdoms weren't united but the people were? Isn't this type of approach called "sophistry"?

No, God would not violated His promise if the people from each tribe were still represented. And that is the case today, all 12 tribes are in existence as Jews. We know that because they were called the house of Israel, which is not the house of Judah. No tribes migrated anywhere except back to Palestine, where they were dispersed again but are be reunited again, the second time (Isa.11:11), and will not be dispersed again (Amos.9:15)

I'm having a hard time making any sense of of this. "We know that because they were called the house of Israel, which is not the house of Judah."

According to Assyrian tablets the peoples that sported Israelite priestly robes were heading north not south.

Numbers defeat me? After having 6 million wiped out 60 years ago, they have their own booming nation of millions. What the holocaust did was galvanize the Jew/Israelite to become more focused in his identity and that is why Jews go to Israel so as not be absorbed into the Gentile world. They will be there when Christ returns for them (Zech.12:10)

Yes, the German attempt to wipe out the Jews cemented their paranoia that everyone is against them. And this proves. . .?

Counting every Jew that is called a Jew, there are hardly enough to justify "sands of the sea". The world population is 3 billion, and the numbers of the named Jews are diminishing.

The Jews are hardly a "booming nation". Where do you get that idea? The current nation called Israel are petitioners of the United States and, to a lesser extent, Europe. If the United States pulled support form it, it would vanish without a trace.

You continue to have a Hosea problem.

Doesn't have to, there are millions of Jews in the world and God doesn't have to have pretend Israelites to make up the numbers.>

Hosea 1

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

No, Biblical history shows that all 12 tribes were indeed back in the land at the time of Christ. So the myth of the Lost Tribes is just that, a myth. All Jews are Israelites and all Israelites are Jews. When the Millennial Kingdom begins, then each tribe will be known and get its inheritance, since a Kingdom will come back into existance and not just a nation.

Show me the precise Biblical passages that fulfill Hosea. Show me any Biblical passages the show the 10 tribes of Israel being combined with Judah.

All you've point out to date is some references to a New Testament character that belonged to other than Judah and Benjamin.

Ofcourse there are. All that the tribes started with in Egypt was 75. The tribe of Benjamin was almost wiped out once. All God needs to keep his promise is a man and woman from each tribe. You guys keep thinking you know how God has to operate and then build an entire theology around it. Who would have predicted that God would come into the world in a manger? Stop trying to put God into a box. The facts do not support your theory. And you are making up a theory to support your own opinions on what God can and cannot do.

You continue to have Hosea problems.

The Syrians were 'smiting' them long before they were deported by the Assyrians (2Ki.10) at one time the entire Israelite army was down to 10,000 men and a few chariots (2Ki.13:7).

Yes, but that was in Kings, as you say, long before the Assyrians. Did they stop fruitful and multiplying, do you think? Plus they had centuries to grow on the Assyrian norther border.

You do not know how large Israel's numbers were by the time the Assyrians came in.

The men were counted. We can typically assume about 4 or 5 to each man, women and children.

The 10 nations never defeated anyone. What pseudo-history are you now imagining? The Babyonians defeated the Assryians and the Persians defeated them. Thus, all 12 tribes came under one single empire.

How do you know the Israel defeated no one? But, of course, you're right, the tribes of Israel only allied with the other peoples on the northern border of Assyria defeated Assyria and left that land. In other words they gained their freedom. I care not that anyone else crushed the Assyrians later. It doesn't matter to the discussion.

I know because the Bible tells us so. Paul doesn't address a 4th group known as 'Israelites'. All those from the lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are considered Hebrews, Israelites and Jews as interchangable terms.

No, the Bible tells you nothing consistent with your beliefs on this issue, except oblique references to Israelites in other places, to who Jesus sent His disciples. There is a reference in Jame, a couple in Acts, I believe, and elsewhere.

Must they be called "Israelites" to make their existence valid? How about "the lost children of Israel"? Would that do it for you?

The prophecy of Hosea doesn't seem to agree that Israel and Judah are interchangeable terms.

Anyone who personally receives Christ as their personal saviour, either Jew or Gentile becomes a Christian and is no longer considered a Jew or Gentile by God, but is considered the Bride of Christ, Christ's very body (Gal.3:28,Eph.5:30). I agree totally. With the exception that the balance of the nonJews thereof are Israelites. The Jew don't accept Christ as having alread come.

I suspect Hosea is talking about when Judah finally submits to Christ, and there is already numbers of descendants of Israel that will welcome them, "sands of the sea" numbers.

By telling me the above you vitiates your own argument.

I am capable of seeing that you accept the essential point of their view, that Israelites are not Jews, based on this idiotic notion that the language cannot change over time and usage.

Their "essential point of view" you have a problem with is their assumption that the royal line of Judah is in England and the Jews elsewhere are impostors, thereby advocating open season on Jews, not that there are Israelite descendants all over the most populous nations on Earth, thereby providing the Jews with support as brothers under the covenant.

I don't hold with the royal line/impostor theory either, though I could be wrong because I'm basing my assumption on Judah being in Palestine and the rest of Israel in Europe. That could have changed. I don't think so, though.

What does this have to do with the House of Israel defeating their Assyrian captors from the northern boundry of Assyria and escaping bondage there?

Again, what does this have to do with the House of Israel defeating their captors and winning their escape?

Well, they were placed with other peoples so they would lose their own national identity, which was the purpose of moving them.

I agree. That's why they didn't regain it by combining with the Jews in Palestine. That's why we're having this discussion. Their identity is still lost.

You don't have any idea how many people were exiled. You have no idea of their birth rate. You have no idea of how many were intermarrying with the local people, as did many from the Southern tribes. So, your numbers are all based on assumptions that have no factual basis.

When you have a count of men, you may multiply it 4 or 5 time to get the true population. There was a count of Israelite men at somewhere around a million. I forget which passage in the Old Testament, maybe somewhere in Kings. That would make about 4 or 5 million.

God said be fruitful and multiply, so I would guess all of Israel did.

I suppose some of the northern kingdom intermarried with the Medes, which who they were placed on the Assyria northern border against the Urartu.

But this would have nothing to do with the southern kingdom. They weren't anywhere near the Assyrian/Urartu border.

See my posts on this.

And as I said about those posts, what do they have to do with the northern kingdom and the Medeians (plus others) from whipping the Assyrians and gaining their escape?

Probably stayed where they were an became part of the local population as did the Southern tribes when many did not go with Ezra and were in the Persian Kingdom during the days of Esther.

Anywhere than north through Turkey, huh? Of course.

I do not see the Israelites mentioned, except as Jews.

Even when Jesus sent His disciples to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"? Where were these lost sheep? The Jews were already there.

And James, "James a servant of God of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." Well, the Jews weren't scattered anywhere. They were right there in Palestine.

Your theories presume the destruction of Israel, or the effective destruction of Israel (10 whole tribes compared to Judah's 2) so that the remnants could be absorbed into Judah with no increase in population to speak of.

You continue to have a Hosea problem, as well as an Ezekiel problem.

Yes, as a return to being a Kingdom. Israel doesn't exist separate from Jews today, they are all one people.

Doesn't fit either Hosea or Ezekiel. Creative approach, though, the kingdom didn't return, just all the people.

What I argue is for the Gentiles to stand by the Jew and not pretend that he is something he isn't, an Israelite!

He doesn't know what he is. His identity is lost. You pointed that out yourself.

Not in Israel they aren't.

Israel has about the population of Maryland. Their problem isn't intermarrying, it's Islam.

Already dealt with all of this. The combined armies of Nabopolassar and Medes destroyed Nineveh. Medes was on the Assyrian northern border with Israel. But I suspect Israel had already taken off. I doubted they want the bigger fight, just get free.

You suspect that Israel had already taken off?

There is no historical record of anyone 'taking off' anywhere.

The descendent's of those tribes were there when both the Babylonians and later the Persian took over that area.

History is about facts not conjecture based on zero evidence.

Moreover, you had asked me for proof that the Babylonians had indeed destroyed the Assyrian Empire.

That historical event does have actual evidence to support it.

Not in Israel they aren't.

Israel has about the population of Maryland. Their problem isn't intermarrying, it's Islam.

Islam is not a threat to Israel's population growth.

Islam is a threat to Israel's existance.

A threat that God will deal with.

[When I argue is for the Gentiles to stand by the Jew and not pretend that he is something he isn't, an Israelite!]

He doesn't know what he is. His identity is lost. You pointed that out yourself.

The identity of the individual tribes has been lost, but the knowledge of who is a Jew and who is a Gentile still exists.

Gentiles can trace their lineage and it isn't to the 'Lost Tribes', who are suppose to have made a migration (never recorded) after overthrowing the Assyrians (never recorded).

[as a return to being a Kingdom. Israel doesn't exist separate from Jews today, they are all one people.]

Doesn't fit either Hosea or Ezekiel. Creative approach, though, the kingdom didn't return, just all the people.

Actually, Hosea and Ezekiel are future events referrring to the Kingdom, both North and South.

The Jews have returned to the Land, they just have not set up their Kingdom yet under Christ.

Nothing 'creative' about it, just dealing with the Bible as it is written, not as you want it to be written.

It is a far less creative approach then inventing a revolt and migration that never happened.

All 12 tribes still exist today and they are all known as Jews.

[I do not see the Israelites mentioned, except as Jews.]

Even when Jesus sent His disciples to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"? Where were these lost sheep? The Jews were already there. And James, "James a servant of God of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." Well, the Jews weren't scattered anywhere. They were right there in Palestine.

That's right all the tribes were in Israel and were known as Jews!

So when Paul do not offend anyone, Jew, Gentile and Church, he was listing the three categories of people in existence, and the Israelites were known as Jews, as was Anna from the tribe of Asar.

Your theories presume the destruction of Israel, or the effective destruction of Israel (10 whole tribes compared to Judah's 2) so that the remnants could be absorbed into Judah with no increase in population to speak of.

What your theory assumes is that those tribes wandered off somewhere.

Any evidence?

No, what do you need evidence for!

The tribes were all represented by individuals who had gone South when the split had occurred and constant travel back and forth before the Assyrians conquered the North.

Over the hundred years of the split, both nations were actually ruled by a single King, even though they were never officially united, so travel back and forth would not have been difficult.

You continue to have a Hosea problem, as well as an Ezekiel problem.

Actually, I have no problem with either Hosea and Ezekiel.

You have created a straw man argument based on arbitrary assumptions.

You assume that the Northern Kingdom had a large population when conquered.

Any proof-no proof.

The 10 Tribes that went into Assyria disappeared as a national entity, not as individual members of those tribes.

All God needs is a man and woman from each tribe to restart it.

Your theory is bogus and nonsense.

[Well, they were placed with other peoples so they would lose their own national identity, which was the purpose of moving them.]

I agree. That's why they didn't regain it by combining with the Jews in Palestine. That's why we're having this discussion. Their identity is still lost.

No, the identity of the individual tribes are lost, but the race of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is still in existance, all 12 tribes as Jews.

Do the Jews know who among them are from Judah or Benjamin?

No, even among the Jews, who you state are only from the South, there is no knowledge of what particlur tribe any individual is, Judah or Benjamin.

[ You don't have any idea how many people were exiled. You have no idea of their birth rate. You have no idea of how many were intermarrying with the local people, as did many from the Southern tribes. So, your numbers are all based on assumptions that have no factual basis. ]

, When you have a count of men, you may multiply it 4 or 5 time to get the true population. There was a count of Israelite men at somewhere around a million. I forget which passage in the Old Testament, maybe somewhere in Kings. That would make about 4 or 5 million.

Now stop your nonsense!

There was no count in the Old Testament at the time of the removal of the 10 tribes that stated any population.

What the Old Testament did state was that before Israel was removed, God had began to cut it short, so that it had no army left.

God said be fruitful and multiply, so I would guess all of Israel did.

You would 'guess'?

They were put under a curse for idol worship (Deut.28, Lev.26).

God kept Israel alive as Jews, combing all 12 tribes as one people who returned to the Land, but not as individual tribes.

I suppose some of the northern kingdom intermarried with the Medes, which who they were placed on the Assyria northern border against the Urartu.

Yes, I suppose they did and lost their identity.

But this would have nothing to do with the southern kingdom. They weren't anywhere near the Assyrian/Urartu border.

We are not talking about the Southern Kingdom, which ended up in the Babylonian Kingdom for 70 years and returned to the Land as Jews

We are talking about the 10 tribes which were taken by the Assyrians into their empire and disappeared from history.

See my posts on this. And as I said about those posts, what do they have to do with the northern kingdom and the Medeians (plus others) from whipping the Assyrians and gaining their escape?

Oh stop making up history!

There is no record of the 10 tribes 'whipping the Assyrians and making their escape.

We know what nations were involved in whipping the Assyrians and they weren't the Israelites.

So do you have any actual facts-no, you don't.

Maybe UFO's came down and took them to North America and they are really the American Indian?

[ Probably stayed where they were an became part of the local population as did the Southern tribes when many did not go with Ezra and were in the Persian Kingdom during the days of Esther. ]

Anywhere than north through Turkey, huh? Of course.

No one is recorded to have gone North through Turkey.

Ofcourse, if you want to make up history, any story will do.

Again, what does this have to do with the House of Israel defeating their captors and winning their escape?

Proof?

Zero.

But why deal with proof when conjecture is so much easier.

We see the House of Israel back in Israel at the time of Christ and identified as such.

Clearly, they had returned with the Southern tribes after the Babylonian captivity.

The House of Israel is never identified to be any place else.

[Well, since they all parts together make up a lighter, can call it a lighter when all parts come together as such.]

So, when all the parts of a lighter are assembled, you can call the striker wheel the lighter?

What it is called is the lighter.

If someone doesn't know the names of the particular parts, that doesn't change the fact that it is still a lighter.

Is this suppose to be a clever argument on your part?

This is of course assuming that all of Israel has come together. Hosea argues otherwise.

Hosea is speaking of the return of the Kingdom, as is Zechariah and the other prophets which speak of the regathering in the Millennial reign.

[ The word 'Jew' didn't come into play until after the division. If the word changed with usage, then the word Jew can very well now refer to all 12 tribes, since all 12 were back in the land when the Lord appeared. Words change with usage and over time. As it was, Jew didn't refer to only one tribe in the first place! It refered to at least 3, Judah, Benjamin and Levi. Over time it came to refer to others as well when they came together in Palestine. ]

That's right, the word "Jew" referred to the House of Judah (southern kingdom) composed of Judah, Benjamin and their allotment of Levite priests and teachers. Because there were two tribes, and priests, in the House of Judah, you presume that all tribes are therefore a part of Judah?

I presume nothing, since the historical facts show that the House of Israel was present when the Lord was born, so they were all known as Jews.

[ Well, you are pretty blind to the historical facts. Members of those same tribes were in the South when the Southern Kingdom fell. So all members of the 12 tribes were present in the Palestine when Ezra came back. The 'lost' house of Israel was present in Palestine when Christ was present and Peter refers to them crucifying their Messiah. So, the fact is, those tribes are in Palestine at the time of Christ and are known as Jews as is Judah and Benjamin. ]

Some members of the northern kingdom did indeed go to Judah to get away from he ubGodly practices of the House of Israel. There are a couple references to people belonging to northern tribes in the Gospels. So what? You continue to have population problems. Either the House of Israel were essentially wiped out, contrary to God promise and Hosea 1:10-11, or the population estimated for Palestine as a whole during that period must have been much greater than 500,000.

And you keep inventing a problem that doesn't exist.

First, you have no idea what the population of the Northern Kingdom was when it went into exile.

Second, of the 500,000 people back in the land, you don't know what amounts were of the 10 tribes.

There is no population problem.

[ The Two Kingdoms were separated and never reunited as a Kingdom. But the individual members from each tribe did intermingle and return together as single people in Palestine, not individual tribes. So what is clear is that you have a very confused notion of both Biblical history and prophecy. ]

You still have population problems or God breaking His promise, not to mention Hosea problems.

And you keep repeating something that are not problems.

The kingdoms weren't united but the people were? Isn't this type of approach called "sophistry"?

No, that is fact

The Kingdom will be reunited under Christ.

Since the Jewish nation disobeyed God, they are under judgment and have not reclaimed their Kingdom status.

That will happen in the Millennial kingdom.

[ No, God would not violated His promise if the people from each tribe were still represented. And that is the case today, all 12 tribes are in existence as Jews. We know that because they were called the house of Israel, which is not the house of Judah. No tribes migrated anywhere except back to Palestine, where they were dispersed again but are be reunited again, the second time (Isa.11:11), and will not be dispersed again (Amos.9:15) ]

I'm having a hard time making any sense of of this. "We know that because they were called the house of Israel, which is not the house of Judah." According to Assyrian tablets the peoples that sported Israelite priestly robes were heading north not south.

You keep citing nonsense as facts.

You don't know anything about those Assyrian tablets.

They have nothing to do with any migration of the Northern Tribes.

Now, what you have hard time making sense of are real facts, not your own myth making.

The two houses of Israel and Judah are divided as houses, but are still blended as a single people today.

They are all known as Jews, just as they were when they were back in the land of Israel when the Lord was born.

[ Numbers defeat me? After having 6 million wiped out 60 years ago, they have their own booming nation of millions. What the holocaust did was galvanize the Jew/Israelite to become more focused in his identity and that is why Jews go to Israel so as not be absorbed into the Gentile world. They will be there when Christ returns for them (Zech.12:10) ]

Yes, the German attempt to wipe out the Jews cemented their paranoia that everyone is against them. And this proves. . .?

First, the Jew is not paranoid, everyone is out to 'get them'.

Second, that comment shows your own anti-semitism, which represents the core of British-Isrealism.

Third, God has no problem with reproducing a race, no matter how small their numbers.

All He needs is a couple from each tribe, and He can repopulate the Millennial kingdom very quickly.

Once again, you are fighting a straw man.

Counting every Jew that is called a Jew, there are hardly enough to justify "sands of the sea". The world population is 3 billion, and the numbers of the named Jews are diminishing. The Jews are hardly a "booming nation". Where do you get that idea? The current nation called Israel are petitioners of the United States and, to a lesser extent, Europe. If the United States pulled support form it, it would vanish without a trace.

Once the Millennial begins, the entire World will repopulate very quickly.

The curse will be removed from creation and death will take a holiday.

A man who dies at a hundred will be considered a child.

So, once again, your number problem is not a problem at all for God.

God took 75 people and built them into a nation of 2million in a couple of centuries.

He will have no problem in speeding up the process in perfect environment.

You continue to have a Hosea problem.

No, there is no 'Hosea' problem.

There is no problem at all, except for you attempts to rewrite history to fit your own false assumptions.

[ Doesn't have to, there are millions of Jews in the world and God doesn't have to have pretend Israelites to make up the numbers.> ]

Hosea 1 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. 11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

And so?

No problem with God handling any of that during the Millennial.

Ye do greatly err not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God'

[ No, Biblical history shows that all 12 tribes were indeed back in the land at the time of Christ. So the myth of the Lost Tribes is just that, a myth. All Jews are Israelites and all Israelites are Jews. When the Millennial Kingdom begins, then each tribe will be known and get its inheritance, since a Kingdom will come back into existence and not just a nation.

Show me the precise Biblical passages that fulfill Hosea. Show me any Biblical passages the show the 10 tribes of Israel being combined with Judah.

Ezek.48, all 12 tribes are mentioned together in the Millennial reign.

[ Ofcourse there are. All that the tribes started with in Egypt was 75. The tribe of Benjamin was almost wiped out once. All God needs to keep his promise is a man and woman from each tribe. You guys keep thinking you know how God has to operate and then build an entire theology around it. Who would have predicted that God would come into the world in a manger? Stop trying to put God into a box. The facts do not support your theory. And you are making up a theory to support your own opinions on what God can and cannot do. ]

You continue to have Hosea problems.

No, you have an Hosea problem.

God has no problem with re population at any rate He wants.

[ The Syrians were 'smiting' them long before they were deported by the Assyrians (2Ki.10) at one time the entire Israelite army was down to 10,000 men and a few chariots (2Ki.13:7). ]

Yes, but that was in Kings, as you say, long before the Assyrians. Did they stop fruitful and multiplying, do you think? Plus they had centuries to grow on the Assyrian norther border.

They were shrinking, not growing.

As for growing on the Assyrian border-any evidence?

Ofcourse not.

You have a historical fact problem.

[ You do not know how large Israel's numbers were by the time the Assyrians came in. ]

The men were counted. We can typically assume about 4 or 5 to each man, women and children.

Stop your lying.

You have nothing in scripture saying that.

[ The 10 nations never defeated anyone. What pseudo-history are you now imagining? The Babylonians defeated the Assyrians and the Persians defeated them. Thus, all 12 tribes came under one single empire. ]

How do you know the Israel defeated no one? But, of course, you're right, the tribes of Israel only allied with the other peoples on the northern border of Assyria defeated Assyria and left that land. In other words they gained their freedom. I care not that anyone else crushed the Assyrians later. It doesn't matter to the discussion.

Well, it matters to history since it never happened.

But you keep telling yourself that it did.

Fantasy history is so much more fun then real history.

[ I know because the Bible tells us so. Paul doesn't address a 4th group known as 'Israelites'. All those from the lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are considered Hebrews, Israelites and Jews as interchangeable terms. ]

No, the Bible tells you nothing consistent with your beliefs on this issue, except oblique references to Israelites in other places, to who Jesus sent His disciples. There is a reference in Jame, a couple in Acts, I believe, and elsewhere.

Yes, there are references to the 1o tribes because they were back in Israel, with Judah and Benjamin and were knowns collectivily as Jews.

[ Must they be called "Israelites" to make their existence valid? How about "the lost children of Israel"? Would that do it for you? ]

There are no 'lost children of Israel', there are only Jews, Gentiles and Christians.

The Jews today consist of all 12 tribes.

Stop inventing history to fit a false theology.

The prophecy of Hosea doesn't seem to agree that Israel and Judah are interchangeable terms.

When the Kingdom comes together in the Millennium, each tribe will be known individually and they will get their inheritance.

Today, the Jew/Israelite/Hebrew is waiting for that Kingdom to be set up and then they will each know what tribe they belong to.

[ Anyone who personally receives Christ as their personal Saviour, either Jew or Gentile becomes a Christian and is no longer considered a Jew or Gentile by God, but is considered the Bride of Christ, Christ's very body (Gal.3:28,Eph.5:30).]

I agree totally. With the exception that the balance of the nonJews thereof are Israelites. The Jew don't accept Christ as having already come.

Yes, and that is why they are still considered Jews and not Christians.

But Christians are not Israelites!

Israelites are from the racial lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and thus are Jews.

I suspect Hosea is talking about when Judah finally submits to Christ, and there is already numbers of descendants of Israel that will welcome them, "sands of the sea" numbers.

No, there will be few descendent's of Abraham, Issac and Jacob left after the Tribulation.

They will become as sands of the sea during the Millennial reign.

By telling me the above you vitiates your own argument. I am capable of seeing that you accept the essential point of their view, that Israelites are not Jews, based on this idiotic notion that the language cannot change over time and usage. Their "essential point of view" you have a problem with is their assumption that the royal line of Judah is in England and the Jews elsewhere are impostors, thereby advocating open season on Jews, not that there are Israelite descendants all over the most populous nations on Earth, thereby providing the Jews with support as brothers under the covenant. I don't hold with the royal line/impostor theory either, though I could be wrong because I'm basing my assumption on Judah being in Palestine and the rest of Israel in Europe. That could have changed. I don't think so, though.

No, the essential issues of the British-Israelite view is that (1) the Israelites are not Jews,(2) that the 10 tribes migrated somewhere and (3) are now someone else.

You hold to all of those falsehoods.

Israel and Judah are today known as Jews.

The 10 tribes as such disappeared from history, but their individual members still exist.

There is no historical record of any revolt against the Assyrians that defeated them and then led to an 'escape' of the 10 tribes.

We do not know how many people even went into exile.

We do know that the 'house of Israel' was present in the Land when the Lord was born, so those tribes do exist, but not as tribes, no more do Judah and Benjamin do.

All those from the racial line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are today-Jews.

In the future, the promise that they will be as the sand of the sea will be realized during the Millennial reign of Christ.

There is no 'number' problem and no 'Hosea' problem.

There is problem with people inventing history and bad theology.

I trust this ends our discussion.

Unless you find that Old Testament passage that gives the number of men from the Northern Kingdom who went into captivity.

But you won't, since it doesn't exist.

Or some historical evidence that states that the 10 tribes revolted and escaped from Assyria.

But you won't since it doesn't exist.

So what you are left with is straw men arguments, stating that if the 10 tribes do not exist God did not keep his promise, based on the 'sand of the sea' promise.

All of God's promises will be kept, but we don't have to invent false theories to help God out.

[We have reached an impasse about the tribes issue.]

Read the Gospels and it is the Jews that Christ is warning, not the Church. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He warns everyone, all the tribes of the earth. Also, remember Rev.12:17 - And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The Jewish people do not have the testimony of Jesus. This warning is to the Christians - he is coming after us.

No, He is coming for us,(1Thess.4:17) that is why those passages refer to the Jew and not the Church-the Church will not be on earth during the Tribulation.

[ You will note also that a Temple will be built that will house the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel. ]

I believe it is a "Holy Place" that is already there. Satan (the abomination of desolation) will stand in the holy place (Dome of the Rock) pretending to be Christ.

The word is temple, which you have already admitted.

So you are denying what you have already to be a fact as stated in 2Thess.2.

What's the matter, no help from Strong's on that one?

[ Those who follow the Anti-Christ will be awed by the signs and wonders he does and his promise of peace.....That will be the deception, not the view of the rapture.]

Just remember, there are two tribulations and you must wait for the true Christ:

There are two tributlations?

One isn't enough?

There are two phrases of the Tribulation, the first 3 1/2 years with relative peace and the second 3 1/2 years known as the Great Tributlation when the anti-Christ reveals himself and seats in the Temple in Jerusalem wanting to be worshiped as God (he is indwelt by Satan)

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days......... 30......And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He comes 2nd., at the 7th trump, after Satan. Satan comes at the 6th trump, 6th vial, 6th seal = 666.

LOL!

Satan comes when he is cast out of heaven in Rev.12.

Christ comes back for His Church before He returns to set up His Millennial Kingdom in Rev.19.

[ Israel is from the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Rom.9:4-5) ]

But there is no dispute with that. All of Israel, all 12 tribes are the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Ping - No, they cannot but they can cover a multitude of sins. (James 5:20) FTD - Works never cover any sins!....That passage states that if one converts a sinner it shall save his soul from hell and hide a multitude of sins.....There is no works mentioned in that passage!....Peter states that it is charity that covers the multitude of sins, not works (1Pe.4:8).

Both scriptures state that a multitude of sins are covered - charity and converting a sinner. Aren't both considered work? Isn't that the work Father wants us to do?

That 'work' is not done by us,(flesh) it is done by God when we yield to the Holy Spirit (Rom.6)

You suspect that Israel had already taken off? There is no historical record of anyone 'taking off' anywhere.

They weren't mentioned as taking part of the sacking of the Assyrian capital.

The descendent's of those tribes were there when both the Babylonians and later the Persian took over that area.

You dispute that The combined armies of Nabopolassar and Medes destroyed Nineveh?

This is information from the Assyrians own records, which have all been translated. Perhaps your history writers neglected the thousands of tablets in the British museum.

This is resource you seem to be lacking.

However, there is little to been read of the Israelite save Assyrian writings because, as you pointed out, God intended for them to forget their heritage.

Do you see the implications of that regarding your argument?

History is about facts not conjecture based on zero evidence.

None of your history mentions the Israelite tribes and their placement in Assyria. They were definitely there.

Gentiles can trace their lineage and it isn't to the 'Lost Tribes', who are suppose to have made a migration (never recorded) after overthrowing the Assyrians (never recorded).

One thing that needs to be corrected. I never said that Israel overthrew the Assyrian empire, I just said they and Medes whipped the Assyrains hold them captive.

NonJews can trace their lineage to 721 BC? Really?