There you have it, in Hebrew letters. The "House of Israel" is everywhere, even down under! `:-D
(Now just wait until someone complains that it's Jewish. :-/)
Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg
Mark it down as biblical truth: There is no pre-tribulation rapture.
However, untold thousands believe in the "secret rapture of the church" prior to the tribulation period. This is because untold thousands don't want to have to think of suffering through a tribulation time frame. The late Corrie ten Boom called this pre-trib rapture teaching the "American doctrine." Go figure.
The belief in a secret rapture of believers before the tribulation is also because of a best-seller, "The Late, Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey which was set loose in the l960s. It has been a paperback aggressively pushed by practically every evangelical / fundamentalist engine going.
Theologians, videos, films and preachers bolster up this myth with their earnest preachings and teachings.
Yet this is nothing but a myth, accented as much by certain theologically conservative Protestant segments similar unto the Roman Catholic underlining of the immaculate conception of Mary. Nevertheless, if there is no biblical support for such a Mariology teaching, it is bogus. Likewise, the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is bogus.
The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.
However, just the opposite is biblical truth. In Matthew 24:29-3l, for instance, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29). That is it in a nutshell!
Yet pre-tribulation rapturists sidestep this clear passage for more oblique passages. The latter are twisted and turned in order to fit into the "American doctrine." Yet such twisting is not sound exegesis. And for biblically-riveted evangelicals and fundamentalists to commit this drastic error is bordering on the horrific.
All other passages in Scripture relating to the "gathering together unto Him" must refer back to the literal time line provided by Jesus in Matthew 24.
One must not use a symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation or any other symbolically-based section of the Bible by which to draw a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.
Further, one must not take words of the apostle Paul so as to insert them opportunistically into a conjured pre-tribulation string of Scripture references. Yet this has been done ad infinitum.
Instead, Jesus' literalism of Matthew 24 must be used as the benchmark for all other "gathering together" themes of Scripture.
One starts with literalism and moves into symbolism when seeking to understand Scripture; it is not the other way around.
During the 1970s and 1980s there was much written and preached about a pre-tribulation rapture. This has wound down some in the last decade or so. Why?
Today, with the world situation being what it is, there is not that much risk-taking in preaching dogmatically the pre-tribulation rapture. Why?
Is it because there are many who are beginning to question its validity? Is it because the world state is so uncertain that to go out on a limb with a false hope may ricochet?
One wonders, with world events progressively becoming more and more anti-Christian, why the pre-tribulation rapture persons are not celebrating each dawn as the day when Jesus may return to earth.
Such is not the phenomenon on a large scale. Furthermore, it may be because the next generation has not bought into this notion.
In any case, it is a myth, a legend of conservative Protestantism's own conjuring and has no base in the Holy Scriptures.
Yet these very Protestants are the ones who ardently point out the myths of Catholicism while holding to some of their own myths. Both segments of Christendom need to do some serious housecleaning of manufactured legends in order to return to the simple Bible truths; otherwise, the church suffers from severe lack of knowledge.
What is so frightening about holding to a pre-tribulation rapture? It is more than mere academic quibbling. Holding to such a notion is drastically weakening the church worldwide.
The church should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.
Instead, the church is languishing with a false hope. This is all orchestrated by the demonic powers in order to eventuate in a limp army of believers. And to see that through in this age of laxity in religion does not take much on the part of the dark powers. In addition, the apostate segment of religion is doing its fair share of blackening truth.
Does it take much intelligence to realize that there are awesomely wretched days yet ahead for the righteous remnant?
Those who are not strong will drop--fall away, as biblically predicted. They will be too numerous to contemplate. But for those who are truly into carrying the daily cross there will be nothing able to thwart their zeal for Christ.
Already the remnant is being strengthened by the Spirit of light. He is gathering His own together in the power of the resurrection and the might of the revealed Word. There numbers are few; but their ardor before the Father is lovingly honored.
Set your vision upon the difficulties yet to be. They are but the trials permitted by the coming Christ.
At the close of the tribulation period, then there will be the gathering together of the believers from the four corners of the earth. They will greet Jesus in the clouds as He descends through space, having left the right hand of the Father in heaven.
The gathering together ("rapture") and the second advent then will be realized as one and the same event occurring at the end of the tribulation time frame. Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:29-3l states it clearly.
It sure does.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
The house of Israel refers to the northern tribes as the Jews who killed the Lord (1Thess.2:14), along with the house of Judea.
There you have it, in Hebrew letters. The "House of Israel" is everywhere, even down under! `:-D
(Now just wait until someone complains that it's Jewish. :-/)
My initial impression of you was correct.
You hold to more heresies then I can count!
Correct me if I am wrong, but you hold to soul sleep, saturday observance, reject the Trinty, hold to festival observance, dietary rules, British-Israelism (make a vieled reference to the United States, instead of the present state of Israel being the 'real' Israelites.)
You seem to believe that the three races did not come from Noah and his sons.
Christ did not go into Abrahams bosom.
I am sure that the list doesn't end there.
And you support this with a constant rewriting of scriptures by appealing to any Hebrew or Greek source that will support your own interpetation.
You are a modern day Origen!
Mark
I'm not sure I understand "soul sleep" but you'll find that the reason I subscribe to the others is that they are Biblical. Your theology....like the Catholic and Protestant base they are derived from......is "False Doctrine".
The house of Israel refers to the northern tribes as the Jews who killed the Lord (1Thess.2:14), along with the house of Judea.
Your disadvantage is actually quite simple to understand. For some reason you cannot comprehend that the "House of Judah" is part of the "House of Israel".....which means they can also be referred to as Israel in and by themselves. This is one of the problems you and your Catholic and Protestant fellow travelers have in common. You have no sense of Biblical history or common genealogy.
You seem to believe that the three races did not come from Noah and his sons.
You know....when I was a child I think I did believe that.....for about 5 minutes.
And you support this with a constant rewriting of scriptures by appealing to any Hebrew or Greek source that will support your own interpretation.
I support my beliefs constantly with scripture and am always sure to show the Greek and Hebrew meanings in addition.....something you seem to disdain.
I haven't seen anything 'Thinkin Gal' has posted so I will take your word that she has 'drank the kool aid' with you.
It is considered good form to ping someone if you speak of them.
I know it takes some time to get to the truth, but I think I am finally finding out what you really believe, but won't say.
What is that? I have been very honest with you in stating what I believe although much of it I don't feel was any of your business.
The Trinity is a crucial doctrine for the Christian....So, someone who claims to be Christian cannot just 'blow it off'....You cannot be saved unless you understand that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God (1Jn.5:10).
Where is it written that the "Trinity is a crucial doctrine for a Christian"? Where is "Trinity" written? Do you think I just "claim" to be a Christian? Did I say I was "blowing it off"? Where did I write that Jesus was not the Son of God? You assume a great deal FTD.
Now, if you believe that Israel has become the Christian nations, you are teaching British Israel ism, no matter how much you want to deny it.
I haven't denied anything. I do believe the Christian nations are filled with the tribes of Israel. I don't give a hoot what British Israelism teaches. They may be right, they may be wrong - I haven't studied it but I do believe the tribes migrated and are the Christian nations of today.
Israel has not become anything else but is now mixed with among the Jews, a term synonymous with both groups.
Then you believe God lies??? Either He is wrong or you are wrong.
Well, clearly, since you have adopted his (Murry's) methodology of running to Strong's to reinterpret what the Bible actually says in English so it is fair to try understand your own theological background.
To reinterpret??? Perhaps you have a background in the languages and have access to the manuscripts. I don't and I don't know Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew. Strong's is a wonderful tool for someone like me (and you) to use.
You are very hesitant to explain what you actually believe, and who are studying under, which indicates that you are trying to cover it up.
I am not at all hesitant to explain my beliefs. I am not covering anything up and I have explained to you why I keep things that have nothing to do with scripture as a private matter.
A Christian should be clear in what they believe and be able to give a reason for the faith that he has, not play word games and hide and seek.
I've been quite clear FTD, it's just that you do not understand. I have given biblical responses to your questions and I never play games with that.
I asked you about Soul sleep and if you believe in that.
I don't know what "soul sleep" is. Give me a description and I'll tell you if I believe in it.
Do you believe in Annihalistism of Souls as well, that there is no eternal torment for the damned?
I believe that at the end of the millennium those that don't make it are thrown in the lake of fire and they are gone. I do not believe they will be tormented forever and ever.
Pre-existance of Souls?
Yes, our souls were with God before we came here in our earthly form, just as we will go home to be with Him again.
I simply asked who she was studying under....What are two ashamed of?....One thing you can tell about cultists, they always want to remain secretive.
I explained that it was none of your business if I studied with anyone. Your job, if you disagree with me, is to point out my error - you have yet to do that. Cultist is one of the unfortunate words you've chosen to use. You should also explain when and where you got the idea anyone was ashamed of anything. (another unfortunate choice of words.) This, however, was your worst choice and you really should apologize to Diego - "What you've won is exposure as a fraud and liar.
Since it was the Jews who killed the Lord, we know that Peter is referring to those who originally came from the Northern tribes as Jews as well.
The "Jews" did not kill the Lord. Is that what your church teaches? Do they teach you that when they tell you Eve ate an apple, when 3 races came from one man and woman, etc., etc.? Perhaps the bigger question would be - and you believe them?
I finally got it out of Ping, that it was the 'Christian nations'....So, she admitted to being a 'British-Israelite.....I am waiting for you to come clean as well.
I didn't realize you were having to pry anything out of me and you must re-read my posts. I NEVER said I was a British-Israelite. Someone is twisting truth here and I'm waiting for that person to come clean.
Actually, I am wondering if you are sane.
The farther I go in reading your posts the uglier the words are.
Well, I haven't seen any sign of Bible knowledge on your part.
Oops - there you go again.
Well Ping has admitted to being British-Israelite so her opinion is really worthless
Someone is telling a fib - guess who? If you think it is worthless then why are you so upset. You know in your heart that you have not been taught the whole truth and you are just ticked about it.
[I Thessalonians 2:13-15] For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
Well....just to be sure, I included the surrounding verses as well.....but I haven't the foggiest as to what you're getting at. Where does this scripture says these Jews are of the Northern kingdom?
Are you of age? Your questions seem childish sometimes and very repetitive. I answered this question in post #238. I'll answer it again. I don't know who they are or where they are. All I know is that they (Ten Tribes of the North) disappeared from history right after the first century. The Jews (One Tribe, plus Benjamin and most of Levi) remained identified to historians.
It seems that God has a reason for not identifying them at this time....but I'll ask you a few questions about them myself.
[2 Samuel 7:10] Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime. When has this prophecy ever been fulfilled by the Jews? They are being afflicted constantly.
[Jeremiah 3:18] In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers. Do you understand that this is speaking of the end times when God will bring these two people (Israel and Judah) together again? They will come from a northern land....so I doubt that they are the Catholic Nations of South America.
{2 Samuel 7:13-19][1 Chronicles 22:10][2 Chronicles 13:5][Psalm 89:20-37][Ezekiel 37:24][Jeremiah 33:17-26]. All these verses speak of David's throne (Kingdom of Israel) always being occupied by a man. When have the Jews had a perpetual throne? The last Jewish King in scripture was Zedekiah and his sons were killed before his eyes, he was blinded, bound in shackles and carried off to Babylon. [II Kings 25:7] We need to find a land where there has been a sitting king since the time of Zedekiah....or God is a liar.
Can you answer these simple question without spewing any more invective?
Is it that hard to hear the prophets? Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Hosea are all singing the same song of redemption and ingathering of the House of Israel, as in the northern kingdom, who are so lost to history that people slam their ears shut to any possibility of their coming back from the dead.
The futile attempts to post evidence remind me of the moral of the story of the rich man and Lazarus:
Luke 16:29-31
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Joseph is still alive, and as a national entity (just as the State of Israel is a nation representing regathered Jews, even though Jews live worldwide) is hiding in plain sight. One could say that Joseph was hiding in plain sight, having risen to the position of vizier of Egypt. There is only one nation of the north, the most powerful and abundantly blessed nation on earth, that like the modern state of Israel, is a nation formed from an gathering of ALL nations, peoples, tongues... not just whites, Anglos, and/or Christians.
Genesis 45:25-28
25 And they went up out of Egypt, and came into the land of Canaan unto Jacob their father,
26 And told him, saying, Joseph is yet alive, and he is governor over all the land of Egypt. And Jacob's heart fainted, for he believed them not.
27 And they told him all the words of Joseph, which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived:
28 And Israel said, It is enough; Joseph my son is yet alive: I will go and see him before I die.
Well, if Jacob had trouble believing the "impossible", no wonder it's an uphill battle. :-D
Oh, and about the Identity movement crowd. Ironically, they may be correct about having descended from the lost tribes. Emphasis on LOST. The Northern Kingdom wasn't dispersed for its righteousness.
Come to think of it, as long as Ephraim continues to feed on wind and join to idols, he's going nowhere fast.
Yup.....too bad people get lumped together with them by simply quoting scripture about the tribes.
The United States is not in the heritage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
This is the age of the Gentiles and God is blessing the Gentiles on how they treat the children of Abraham, Issac and Jacob (Gen.12).
When the Church is removed, God will again dealing with those same children as the 12 tribes, Jew/Israelite/Hebrew, all of one line.
Now, I stated that someone believed in the British Israelite view didn't haven't to be an antisemite, but it is bad theology, based on conjecture and myth.
But, likewise it is very disingenuous to believe that view and not admit it.
So you don't think they are the United States?
Remember this post?
Ask yourselves.....from what people have many blessings of this world flowed? From a tiny little country in the Middle East we call Israel or has God seen to it that another group of folks have been responsible for many things of this nature? From what areas of the world have the greatest Christian missionary endeavors begun.....carrying the Gospel to mankind? From what people have many useful inventions materialized....from whom have great strides in the knowledge of medicine and modern science been developed? From the little country we call Israel? They say they are the chosen ones....is this completely true? Who feeds the world? Who, at the drop of a hat....is there to help the rest of mankind, spending billions of their own tax dollars to fight disease, natural disasters with little concern about "just who gets the credit". Do these blessings come from a "Almighty God" who has perhaps channeled them through a blessed people....or is this all just coincidence? (emphasis added)
Dispensalism, wrongly dividing the word of truth Posted by Diego1618 to topcat54; Ping-Pong; Thinkin' Gal On Religion 04/22/2007 12:13:37 AM CDT · 344 of 768
So, if my 'invective' seems strong it is because you are being disingenuous on what you believe.
Ping and Thinkin' Gal have come clean, why don't you?
Two points FTD:
1.I thought, as you have been told, it was just good manners to ping someone if they were mentioned.
2."Have come clean"??? What in the world are you talking about? You speak as if what some of us have said is a deep, dark secret. It is there for anyone with eyes and ears. You were offered a hand out of the hole you are digging for yourself but you wouldn't accept it. I'm sure the hand is still extended but if you won't take it you'll have to get in the shower and "come clean" all on your own. (Cleanliness is next to Godliness)
They are speaking of reuniting Israel and Judea as a single nation again under the Davidic Monarchy.
That hasn't happened yet, even though all 12 tribes are now known as Jews.
The land hasn't been divided into tribes for their inheritance, as was promised to them.
Now, you continually claim that the House of Israel are never called 'Jews', yet Peter states they crucified the Lord and it was the Jews who did so.
And the list of heresies keeps growing.
You also believe in Annihilatism, no eternal lake of Fire.
It is indeed amazing how one man can get so fouled up.
And, as for your correcting the Bible with your own personal opinions, that is really the height of arrogance.
You do not even read Greek or Hebrew, but you are going to correct the translation of men who could think and speak both?
With an interlinear and a lexicon?
And then you ask people to prove things from the scriptures!
What scriptures-your personal one?
Why don't you make your own bible and than we can go to Strongs and the Interliner and correct it with our own opinions.
1.I thought, as you have been told, it was just good manners to ping someone if they were mentioned.
Thank you.
I had been typing quickly and did not take the time to put your name in.
I will in the future.
2."Have come clean"??? What in the world are you talking about? You speak as if what some of us have said is a deep, dark secret. It is there for anyone with eyes and ears. You were offered a hand out of the hole you are digging for yourself but you wouldn't accept it. I'm sure the hand is still extended but if you won't take it you'll have to get in the shower and "come clean" all on your own. (Cleanliness is next to Godliness)
The 'coming clean' was admitting that you do believe that the Christian nations are the Israelites which is British-Israelitism.
So, after dancing around, you finally admitted it.
As for digging a hole, since the theory is utter nonsense, with no evidence to support it, it is you that is in the 'hole' looking up.
No Gentile nations are being blessed as the Israelites, they are blessed because they defend the Jews, which include all 12 tribes, God's chosen people.
Try comparing some scripture with scripture.
Which is how one is suppose to interpet scripture, not run to Lexicons and Interliners. (1Cor.2:13)
It was the Jews who killed the Lord and Peter says it was the House of Israel (Acts.2:36), thus, those people who were from the Northern Kingdoms were called Jews.
And that was the title that was put over the Lord's head, King of the Jews, and that was who He asked His Father to forgive, those who crucified Him, the Jews, from both Houses.
That's what you believe, and the statement speaks volumes.
But, likewise it is very disingenuous to believe that view and not admit it.
"That view" - British Israelitism - is the pit you are trying to push me (and others) into, but it's not what I posted. Tribes assimilated among the nations would have ended up in a lot of places, Britain included. I might as well demand that because you have the belief in the trinity in common with the RCC, you should just admit that your belief system is Catholic. Not to do so would be disingenuous. But that would be absurd.
When the Church is removed...
Removed? It's already far gone.
That's okay, I understand.
So, after dancing around, you finally admitted it
I didn't dance around or "admit" anything. From the very beginning I said that - it is not a secret. However, you must stop saying British Israelism. I don't wish to be placed in anything I'm not completely certain of and I don't know much about them. As I have said, I do believe the tribes migrated (after being dispersed) and I believe they are the Christian nations of today, especially this "One Nation Under God". We are here for a reason and I see God's hand in it.
[Acts 2:36] Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. The next line in scripture says: verse 37 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" So....these are the folks that Peter is referring to when he says "Whom ye have crucified".
Who are these folks? It's not ALL The House of Israel who crucified him. Peter is telling everyone to let ALL the Israelites know about this situation....and indeed that was their commission from The Lord: [Matthew 10:5-6] Go to the House of the Lost Sheep of Israel.
Peter is talking to: verse 5....And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. These were the folks being addressed by Peter....they were gathered in Jerusalem for Shavuot. They were not the same folks Peter was referring to when he said ALL the House of Israel.....because they, the Jews, constituted only 1/12 of the House of Israel.
I win!
You don't have to be a British Israelite....which is what you have been calling me....to know that The Lord has blessed this country. Have you ever given any thought as to why we were the first to recognize the modern day nation of Israel? Why have we stood by her side all these years? Are you so filled with hatred for the Jews that you cannot recognize God's plan in all of this?
But, likewise it is very disingenuous to believe that view and not admit it.
It is also very disingenuous to harp and harp on about all the Nation of Israel being Jewish. The scriptures do not back you up.....time after time after time!
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