Posted on 07/05/2007 3:00:33 AM PDT by Gamecock
The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:
The First Vision
Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:
That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.
This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)
And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,
Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)
How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).
What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.
While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)
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(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.
(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:
The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.
(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:
This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).
(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.
But what is your definition of God versus god?
http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/god-jesus-trinity-virgin_birth.htm states that:
The Trinity and Virgin Birth are doctrines of man that were an integral part of mystery religions. They were invented by Nimrod (grandson of Noah); and made official doctrines of Christianity by the unbaptized, pagan Roman Emperor Constantine...
Constantine assembled the Council of Nicea in 325 AD; and established the creed which became the center of Christian belief in God—the Trinity and Virgin Birth. This Creed of St. Athanasius remains the foundation of Christian belief today. “He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.” In essence it states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all three the same god. They are all uncreated, incomprehensible, eternal, and almighty; and its believers are “compelled by the Christian verity, to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord.” Despite the claims of its founder, it is clearly the doctrine of three gods and not one...
As God created man in his own likeness and image (Gen. 1:26), so Adam begat a son in his own likeness and image (Gen. 5:3). What does God look like? Look at yourself in the mirror. Although the human body has lost its glory, we retain the likeness and image of God...
God withdrew His spirit from among them. God no longer spoke with man. Satan was given power to destroy the Church of Christ (Rev. 12:5, 6), the holy priesthood ( 12:17 ), and finally every saint of God (Rev. 13:5-7) for a period of 1260 years. Knowledge of God was soon lost after the days of Constantine...
The Bible leaves no doubt the Almighty Father stands alone as GOD; and is above Jesus in immortality, authority, and perfection. GOD is one and not three...
The Almighty Father is the King of Kings over the entire Universe. He alone is GOD. GOD is one, perfect, without beginning or end, and changes not. The Creed of St. Athanasius declares, “So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.” This is clearly a doctrine of three gods. The Bible teaches there are actually two distinct and individual personages that constitute the supreme and governing power over the Universe and this creation—the Father AND the Son. The Holy Spirit shares the same mind and purpose with God and Jesus; and coordinates the work of all. These three constitute what is termed the Godhead. Neither Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit can be GOD. There is nothing in the Bible that teaches the Trinity...
Jesus had a beginning; and was the beginning of this creation—the only begotten of the Father in this creation. Jesus lived as a spirit like us before His birth into the world, died, and was raised from the grave by the Father...
Jesus received His power from the Father. Before He was born of water and the Spirit, He was alien to the kingdom of God ; and held no divine power. He could not have been GOD. He had to be born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God . Jesus was then ordained an Apostle, Prophet, and Lawgiver under the hands of the Father (Heb. 5:5). He gave others divine power to bind on earth and in heaven. He was raised from the dead by the power of the Father. After His resurrection, Jesus was given all power in this creation by the Father...
Jesus had a beginning; and WAS the beginning of this creation. Jesus told John, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.” (Rev. 21:6) All men, including Jesus, were first created as spirits. “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” (John 3:13)
Jesus was the only spirit brought forth by God. “In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.” (1 John 4:9) He is not Almighty GOD; but, He is the God of this creation. The rest of creation was the work of Jesus in liaison with the Father...
Some have been led to believe through the doctrines of Constantine that Jesus was God. GOD cannot be alien to His own kingdom. The Father was speaking from heaven, the Son was rising up out of the water, and the Holy Spirit was descending upon Jesus. It is not possible that these three different entities in three different places at the same time can be one and the same identical person—GOD. GOD is one and not three...
Faith in Jesus is possible only through knowing the real Jesus—the seed of David. Jesus is not GOD; although He is the God and Savior of this creation...
Exactly 1260 years after the beast, Papal Rome was established in 570 AD, Joseph Smith claimed to have been ordained to the Prophetic Office under the hands of angels; and restored both the Melchisedec Priesthood and the original gospel of Christ...
It sounds to me that LDS doctrine puts Jesus as a lesser being than Heavenly Father, that Jesus is a completely separate individual from GOD, that there is no such thing as the Holy Spirit as God, that GOD originally had a human form and personally impregnated Mary, that there are multiple universes and Jesus is in charge only of our particular one.
I think that there are a whole bunch of serious departures from what we’d call mainstream Christianity. Do I support your right to believe in LDS doctrines? Sure. I support the right of Jains to practice their own theology as well.
As others have mentioned, what irritates is the new interpretations being generated as well as new documentation that points in very different directions from original Church teachings, while using the same Biblical names and characters.
Is this you speaking or the article to which you refer?... “There is nothing in the Bible that teaches the Trinity”
BTW, welcome to the scrum.
LOL, I wondered how you were going to answer that.
AND...?
You know from post 844 that I am not “anti-christian” yet claim you intend to refer to me as such.
The Religion Moderator stated in post 784 to you:
“It is not derogatory to be “anti” something.
I do not consider the term “anti” to be “making it personal” unless the poster is attributing motives which have not been declared by the Freeper targeted by the claim.
For instance, “your anti-atheist position...” may not be making it personal, if you have made it clear that you are against atheism.”
Nothing in my posts can be remotely construed as “anti-christian.” To the contrary, I expressly stated in post 844 my devotion to Christ. To call me “anti-christian” would be “attributing motives which have not been declared by the Freeper targeted by the claim,” and therefore, would be violative of the posting rules. If you refer to me as “anti-christian” I will regrettably be compelled to report the abuse to the RM. I thank you in advance for not misrepresenting my belief in and devotion to Christ.
Actually, both.
The concept of the Trinity is entirely Catholic. As is worship on the first day of the week, Christmas on Dec 25, the selection of Easter etc. The big difference is that I accept the authority of the Magisterium when it decrees these.
Thanks for the welcome. I’ve actually hung back since you’re doing a fair job and I didn’t want to steal any of your thunder.
And just as I said, my mother, brother, husband and inlaws are Mormon, and so if you call me anti-mormon I will be forced to LOL at your hypocrisy, since I can only rightly be called an anti-mormonism.
I don’t need to run to the Mod for every slight I feel. In fact my feelings don’t have much to do with reality. I think lurkers can understand my motivations and also yours. Adults should not need to be censured for name-calling IMO, didn’t we pass that in Kindergarten. You and others will continue to call me anti-mormon, it is your way to demonize me. I’ll accept that.
You have mail
Got it. Thanks. Appreciate your use of PM.
Please clarify for me. Sometime ago I asked you:
“In your world, should you be able to refuse service to a Mormon patronize your restaurant because of his or her religion?
Should you be able to refuse to hire a Mormon because of his or her religion?
Should you be able to refuse to rent your apartment to a Mormon because of his or her religion?”
To which you responded:
Yes, I just might,
I am forbidden to ask their religion in those circumstances, but if they are forthcoming with the information and there is another suitable person who is also waiting for a table or renting my apartment or seeking employment, it may very well sway my opinion.
Cold hard fact brother.
It is MY restaurant and MY apartment and MY business. I can judge suitability on any criteria I choose. I may not let anyone know what criteria I based my decision, but it is still my decision.”
168 posted on 06/03/2007 6:51:00 PM PDT by colorcountry (”You step in crap once and spend the rest of your life scraping it off.”)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 166 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
Is that an example of “anti-mormonism” or “anti-mormon?”
Neither. I said it might sway me. The reason it would sway me is the way it is presented. If someone tried to rent my property and said “I have an IQ of 250, as a way of trying to present himself in a better light (just as if he brought up his religious practices, I would hold the mannerism against him. You are assigning motives to my post. It is against the rules of the religion forum.
Also you are not to continue discussions from previous threads.
What do rules mean to you?
The thing is....with all humility I'm right about that post of yours.....
You in fact "typed" and "sounded"....just like Restornu.
Would any pro Mormon care to have discourse on http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1861095/posts?page=921#921?
There seems to be certain silence.
When I ask you to clarify, that is assigning motives to you?
I am not continuing a discussion from another thread. I am asking how earlier statements made by you comport with your distinguishing yourself as being “anti-mormonism” but not “anti-mormon” which is the current subject of our latest post exchanges on this thread.
Best Wishes.
Uhh...posting a comment from a June 3 thread on this one that was originally started July 5 sure looks like continuing a discussion to me.
I already clairified on the other thread. Now please don’t ever ask that same question again.
The point I was making then had nothing to do with Mormonism per se, but everything about my right to cast my vote for whomever and for whatever reason I wished.
That post being carried over on to this thread shines a dishonest light on our previous exchange and is precisely why the mods frown upon it.
Please clarify my understanding of this rule if you will, moderator.
Not quite.
I have no desire to break the rules. I reviewed the Religion Moderator’s page regarding the rules, but didn’t see any reference to forbidding the quoting of a earlier post on a different thread by a Freeper, particularly if it is salient to the current discussion.
If such is the case, I apologize to CC and will henceforth refrain from quoting earlier posts.
CC,
Is there another area to look for the rules on these issues. I am fairly new to Free Republic and I don’t want to violate the rules.
Thanks.
That is why I asked the Religion Moderator for clairification. But if you look at the religion Moderator’s home page, he/she/whoever has a list of rules for this forum.
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