Posted on 07/05/2007 3:00:33 AM PDT by Gamecock
Terrestrial kingdomPeople who refuse to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ but who live honorable lives will receive a place in the terrestrial kingdom.
Telestial kingdomThose who continue in their sins and do not repent until after they have died, will eventually receive a place in the telestial kingdom.
A Christian response to the "third heaven" Paul speaks of is as follows, which is careful not to exceed what the text of Scripture and the Holy Spirit tell us. Unlike the LDS description which plucks its florid definition out of thin air...
In 2 Corinthians 12:2 this man, maybe Paul, is caught up to the third heaven. What happened to cause him to be caught up to the third heaven and what is the third heaven? Answer (by R. McLaughlin) The meaning of "third heaven" is not entirely clear. Rabbinical sources mention seven heavens, and Paul may have been speaking from this perspective -- perhaps indicating that he had received an incredible revelation, though not the highest. By some accounts, "third" is a temporal referent, the "third heaven" being the one that exists right now, the abode of departed believers. The cause of this "catching up" was God himself, the giver of revelation. The experience is quite similar to a number of Old Testament prophetic experiences (e.g. Isa. 6). God occasionally gave his prophets and apostles (compare John's Revelation) visions of heaven itself. Also, the Old Testament tabernacle and temple were places where heaven and earth intersected. To be in either of these was to be simultaneously in the heavenly court of God, as in Isaiah 6. In any event, since Paul's point is the defense of his own apostleship, we can assume that the revelation surpassed anything that the false apostles (2 Cor. 11:13) claimed for themselves. It was an incredible revelation of the heavenly realm, given directly to Paul (in my opinion Paul was speaking of himself) by God, and given especially for Paul himself (at least in content). Question
I believe that the Father passed through mortal life in the same way that the Son did.
Where is the Scripture for that belief which Christians would label as outright heresy?
If you believe God was once a man like you and me, you must agree with your churches teaching of the following, right?
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet, J. F. Smith p 345). "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22). "God himself, the Father of us all was once a man like us." (History of the Church, Vol 6, Joseph Smith p 305).
Where is the Scripture to support any of this peculiar, heretical notion which exalts man at the expense of the Triune God?
The entire of Mormonism rests upon the lie that God's Holy Spirit was no longer indwelling humankind once the last Apostle died, and God needed a Joseph Smith to restore the Holy Spirit to the human spirit. Islam began under similar libelous assertions by another demon inspired 'man of the flesh', albeit that demon inspired false religion sees suicide murder as 'good works'. If the flase teaching of Mormonism causes men's souls to perish eternally, is it not just as deadly, spiritually, as Islam?
What a particular tale from MHGinTN.
The Holy Ghost was always upon earth just not as in the form of a Constance companion.
BIBLE DICTIONARY
Holy Ghost
1. Without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, nothing else matters.
2. Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15) The same idea is expressed frequently in the Bible: those who love God keep his commandments (Ex. 20:6; Deut. 5:10, 7:9, 19:9; Josh. 22:5; Dan. 9:4; John 15:10; 1 John 5:2, 3). We believe that those commandments include the making of covenants, such as those involved in the ordinances of baptism, the endowment, and eternal marriage.
3. Not everyone has the same opportunity in life to hear the gospel and accept the covenants. Because God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:24), he has provided a way that all may receive the gospel and the ordinances. Hence we have the temples and proxy ordinances.
Why then, must one "pass the judgement of Joseph Smith to enter the Celestial kingdom?"
The Apostle Paul wrote that "the saints shall judge the world" and that they would "judge angels" (1 Cor. 6:2, 3) That being the case in Paul's day, I see nothing strange in the idea that Joseph Smith, through whom the ancient Church was restored, will judge those of the latter days.
However, he will do so only under the direction of Jesus Christ.
"Living according to the gospel of Jesus Christ", really means "Living according to the gospel of Jesus Christ as it is interpreted by the LDS church, does it not?"
Since I believe that the LDS Church understands the Gospel as well as anyone, I have no problem recommending our interpretation of it.
However, I think perhaps you may be missing an important point. Salvation is not merely a matter of interpreting the gospel, but living it. We will be judged not just by what we know but by how well we lived according to what we know. Those whose interpretation is imperfect may nevertheless be blessed by living the best they know how. As Jesus said, "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required" (Luke 12:48).
I believe that God loves all mankind as his children. He desires all to be saved. He will do what he can, consistent with his justice, to save those who will be saved.
This post is much more indicative of mormon beliefs that your orginal post #291 that left out major points.
I question this statement from that post: I see nothing in the scriptures about ruling planets or spirit children. That is speculation. Unfortunately, a lot of folklore has been built on speculation
Through my own personal experience, I know that it is taught that there are millions of spirit children waiting for earthly bodies, hence the practice of large LDS families. Also, my experience is that it is much more than "speculation" that "as man is God once was, as God is man may become" (even though this is denied after many years of teaching it), but is a firm belief by many mormons. Thanks.
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:10-14
So there is something God cannot do?
Where is the Scripture for that belief which Christians would label as outright heresy?
If you believe God was once a man like you and me, you must agree with your churches teaching of the following, right?
What I sumized, suspect or my common sense tells me or if I connect the dots don't make it scripture or doctrine nor would it be heresy!
Even if you refuse to see or take the word of Jesus he does indicate-
1- Jesus could see his Heavenly Father
2- Jesus was able to see the things his Father taught him.
3- Jesus testified to these things and re enforces what he is trying to tell the mortal man
4- It was vital to Jesus that he do the will of his Father in heaven and give his Father all the glorY.
5- Jesus also insisted that other recognized his Father
6- Jesus keeps stressing the point His Father in Heaven
sent Jesus his only begotton Son to earht.
John 5
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
***
30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
He will do what he can, consistent with his justice, to save those who will be saved.
I believe this caveat to mean that once the soul (after death) has the choice to accept or reject the posthumous baptism, confirmation into the LDS church and temple ordinances performed by proxy in its name, if the soul then rejects these acts, the soul will not be allowed into the Celestial kingdom, but must remain in the lower kingdom.
Ahhh...more fiction.
It's just more of Joe Smith's demented ego.
...Ye shall be as gods." (Genesis 3:1,5)"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said...
Thanks.
Through my own personal experience, I know that it is taught that there are millions of spirit children waiting for earthly bodies, hence the practice of large LDS families. Also, my experience is that it is much more than "speculation" that "as man is God once was, as God is man may become" (even though this is denied after many years of teaching it), but is a firm belief by many mormons. Thanks.
Perhaps I was not clear. What I labeled as speculation in my previous post was the idea that men will rule their own planets. Also speculative are most statements about the birth of spirit children that one hears from time to time.
That said, Mormons generally believe it likely that many spirits, children of our Heavenly Father, are still awaiting their opportunity to come to earth. Whether there be millions, I could not say.
You allude to Lorenzo Snow's famous couplet, "As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be." It is still taught in the Church. And as you note, it is firmly believed by many of us.
May I remind you before I ever learn about the Church I received a witness by the Power of the Holy Ghost before I received more instructions from the Lord about his Church!
I had faith that the Lord Church had to be somewhere on earth the Bible testified to in in Eph 4
I was not buying what the misister were selling! They are the ones who would deny revelation saying the heavens are closed, for goodness sakes the ignorance like to tout Rev 22:18-19
NO Tradition of Men Church who Creed orginated in 325 AD represent the Lord Church on earth, (it was a good waiting station or gathering place until the Lord's restored his Church on earth) but it is not The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Had the Tradition of Men version been the answer I would have not thrist for more and went on a quest for 38 years!
I have ears to hear and eyes to see, I know my master voice!
I do not berate anyof you for where you are at in your understanding of your belief, but I think it is reckless of you folks to accuse the LDS of heresy
Did not Jesus say his father showed him all things and did not Jesus say he saw his father?
Jesus and his father are two seperate beings.
The Heavenly Father was not a Ghost there is only one Ghost in the Godhead, the Holy Ghost!
What belief is there that some Christian somewhere has not labeled a heresy?
Although this has been fun, when one party to the conversation is reduced to making accusations of heresy, there is little reason to continue. Good day to you.
Worse, it contradicts scripture, proving itself false
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Would you kindly stop picking on my disablities!
First of all I don’t expect you to understand those who are different than you.
I am dyslexic and the colors help me to focus and I just found out all my eye trouble I am having besides dry eyes, my lazy eye has a cataract!
When I have to concentrate I need to use extra tools!
Dear one, I’m not picking on your disabilities, but your Mormonism victimhood mentality whispers to you that I am.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." -- Matthew 12:36-37"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
“NO Tradition of Men Church who Creed orginated in 325 AD represent the Lord Church on earth...”
... only those originating in 1830 AD! 1,505 years later!
IF something is not bound by time and at some point it comes into existence, is there ever a point in time at which it cannot be said to exist? (The correct answer is no.)There will undoubtably be many who will call me all sorts of things for this example, but it is an accurate exercise in temporal reasoning which is why God would explain things to the simple minded peasants as I am from Everlasting unto Everlasting, From all eternity to all eternity and so forth.
Even if God "Became God" some when, as soon as he exists outside of time, he has always been God.
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