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Our Mormon Brothers?
Reformed Evangelist ^ | May 14th, 2007 | Jeff Fuller

Posted on 07/05/2007 3:00:33 AM PDT by Gamecock

Mormon Evangelists

The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:

The First Vision

Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:

That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.

This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)

And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,

Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)

How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:

14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).

What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.

While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)

————————————————-

(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.

(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:

The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.

(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:

This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).

(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: apologetics; boggsforgovernor; brothers; christianity; lds; mormon; mormonism; orthodoxy
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To: colorcountry

[stranger to you....Yes you are now a stranger when you leave the flock!

When members of a cult turn their backs on former members and treat them like strangers it is called shunning and is a recognized tactic of cults.]

That is probably the most clear description I seen of what goes on that many here will not acknowledge - the “shunning” of former members.


1,081 posted on 07/13/2007 12:30:40 PM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: Enosh
And I’m going down now to catch breakfast.

me too!

Again; gmta!

1,082 posted on 07/13/2007 12:36:32 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Utah Girl

Thanks very much.


1,083 posted on 07/13/2007 12:37:40 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Utah Binger

Beautiful place!!!

I like the wood and the stone (local material?)

Anyone out there in Utah land been to the Kiva Koffeehouse, just west of Escalante?


1,084 posted on 07/13/2007 12:39:10 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Religion Moderator

AHhh...


1,085 posted on 07/13/2007 12:39:44 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Utah Binger

‘Nother question...

Do you use your waste water on the grass?


1,086 posted on 07/13/2007 12:40:22 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
So, are you saying that when a man dies, his spirit dies also?

No; for the book says it 'sleeps' 'til that trumpet sounds.

1,087 posted on 07/13/2007 12:43:49 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Greg F

Dang!

I just KNEW I should have said...

Inverted Beast's number!!

1,088 posted on 07/13/2007 12:46:31 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
John sees the celestial earth, the throne of God, and all created things worshipping the Lord.

HuH?

You really think so??


Those who overcome shall be sons of God—The earth attains its celestial glory.

It DOES??

Where you you FIND this stuff?

1,089 posted on 07/13/2007 12:48:46 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Truth-Miner
I hear crickets...

Yes, but are they Mormon Crickets?


1,090 posted on 07/13/2007 12:48:49 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Greg F
Do you have a cite for the artificial insemination of Mary?

No, that was my example, but I have lots of Cites for Jesus being born of a virgin.

Good enough?
1,091 posted on 07/13/2007 12:50:23 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser

bookmark, BBL


1,092 posted on 07/13/2007 12:52:19 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Porterville
It is good that so many like yourself represent Baptist, because it is so easy to see right through you.

That's because he's transparently been de-humanized.

1,093 posted on 07/13/2007 12:52:33 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Greg F
“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action.

That must be why, even today, my wife says...

oh god

Oh God

OH GOD!!!!

1,094 posted on 07/13/2007 12:55:15 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
I just attributed motive to everyone here.

And, I might add, did a VERY good job of it!!

You just MUST be a prophet! ;^)

1,095 posted on 07/13/2007 12:56:32 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Porterville
I don’t think it.... I’m just telling you that many people believe your faith to be on hatred.

Keep it up and we can ALL be involved in a really big free-for-all!

1,096 posted on 07/13/2007 12:57:37 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
?I am sure there are LDS who do not keep the word of wisdom

Well...

Are they COMMANDED to do so??

1,097 posted on 07/13/2007 12:58:59 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MarkBsnr
Dang! this page never posted, and I went on, posting now, then work, then BBL

you said: My reference to heresies are, of course, defined as the Catholic Church defines them. The incorporation of the Arian doctrine, for instance, within the LDS Church presents, in all probability ,an insurmountable gulf between us theologically.

Yes, it's too bad the Catholics fell for Constantine's deal at Nice, the really fell away there, i guess there obviously a gulf, they left the truth as was prophesied in the Bible, and really need to repent and join God's restored Church and return to his truth.

You see the opposite argument can be made tot he one the Catholic church is used to making with Protestants. Sometimes, It takes a Catholic to understand the strength of the Mormon position theologically.

you said: The very nature of Jesus Christ as recognized by our two organizations also presents an insurmountable gulf. We understand that Jesus IS God, one with the Father and one with the Holy Spirit; and that the three are One.

Which goes to the heart of the Council at Nice, the belief that had been the norm (see my section on Hippolytus on my page) refuting the Arianism that was the norm before and accepting the Noetian View that had been called a heresy by the church fathers up until then. (you do understand that the doctrine of the infallibility of the pope and the inerrancy of the church means that if one instance of changing a doctrine that was previously held means that by their own tenants the Catholic church is not true, right?) I am not expecting you to admit that I am right. I am not trying to prove you wrong. All I expect is the entirely logical statement that "you could look at it that way" for then we can discuss the differences without fighting over why they exist.

LDS apparently understands that Jesus is created by God as a lesser being and, while Jehovah of the Old Testament, is still subordinate.

Relationships?

As a son, of course Jesus is obedient to his Father.

As a member of the God head (which is in the Bible where Trinity is not by the way) Jesus and God are Co-equal, and being of one mind might and strength, to speak to one is to speak to the other., they are equal for they are one.

What you are doing is trying to say it's all one relation ship (sounds familiar eh?) and we are saying there is more than one relationship. So it's just not as simple as you keep trying to make it.

you said: The issue may or may not be of importance to Mormons, but it sure is to mainstream Christianity.

It is important to us, but we are not the ones claiming people have to understand us, and not being willing to understand you.

you said: I’ll try to avoid the ‘when did you stop beating your wife’ questions.

Thank you, I will do the same for you.

you said: I must say that it is refreshing to converse with somebody that has a published doctrine

Thanks again, I will be linking when we get to doctrine that needs "Backup", Grin

you said: Modesty? True; the Mormon beauty pageants that I’ve seen pictures of have the young ladies in fairly revealing bikinis and g-strings, but the overall effect is drastically offset by those large t-shirts and bloomers that they wear underneath!!!!

ROTFLOL!

Thanks, this post was getting dry... gonna go get some Adam's ale (water) for my throat now...
1,098 posted on 07/13/2007 1:00:29 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser

“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action.”

combined with:

Jesus born of a virgin

=

Nonsense.

It was a supernatural action. Mormon’s have it wrong.


1,099 posted on 07/13/2007 1:02:36 PM PDT by Greg F (<><)
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To: JRochelle
A river in Zion National Park was nothing more than a stream.

Go back in the monsoon season!

1,100 posted on 07/13/2007 1:02:41 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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