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To: DragoonEnNoir; markomalley

One thing frequently overlooked in discussing this is that the priest is not acting as a mediator in addition to Christ, but is acting in persona christi, that is, in the person of Christ. The Mass that is offered every day is not an additional sacrifice, it is THE Sacrifice, the non-bloody repetition of the same sacrifice of Calvary at all times throughout history. We are at Calvary, we are standing at the foot of the Cross, and the priest is both victim and priest, in that same Sacrifice, not a different or additional one. It is the sacrificial event that was the culmination of all sacrifices under the Old Law and extends throughout all history thereafter, still happening every day on our altars.

The changes to the Mass after Vatican II unfortunately clouded this aspect of Catholic Eucharistic theology somewhat, but this stunning fact of the One Sacrifice is actually what the Church believes about the priest and his role. There is only one Mediator: that is Our Lord, Jesus Christ. And the priest is acting as an alter Christus at that moment, not as an addition or supplement to Our Lord.

Ordination is considered in the Catholic Church to effect an ontological change, which is what makes this possible for the priest; he is not merely the designated person for performing a certain role in a commemorative act, but is empowered through the Holy Spirit acting through the Church to participate, in persona Christi, in the one sacrifice of Calvary that is still being enacted among us to this day.


23 posted on 06/17/2007 7:12:39 AM PDT by livius
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To: livius
One thing frequently overlooked in discussing this is that the priest is not acting as a mediator in addition to Christ, but is acting in persona christi, that is, in the person of Christ.

Here a Christ there a Christ everywhere a christ, christ. There is NO provision for priests in the new church. The priest was a type of Christ and He became both priest and sacrifice.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

THE Sacrifice, the non-bloody repetition of the same sacrifice of Calvary at all times throughout history.

Hbr 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

There is no provision in scripture for an ongoing sacrifice

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hbr 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

31 posted on 06/17/2007 8:32:45 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: livius; DragoonEnNoir
One thing I find fascinating in studying the Divine Liturgy (be it the Mass or one of the Eastern liturgies) is the eternal nature of the sacrifice (τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου -- Rev 13:8c -- the lamb that was sacrificed from the foundation of the world (kosmos - age))

Appreciating the timelessness of God is essential in understanding, correctly, what happens with the sacrifice of the Mass. Ref Pet 3:8 (μία ἡμέρα παρὰ κυρίῳ ὡς χίλια ἔτη καὶ χίλια ἔτη ὡς ἡμέρα μία -- one day is with the Lord like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day).

Without the understanding of the two ideas, above, it is impossible to truly understand the sacrificial nature of the Mass.

The pre-figuring of the sacrifice offered by Melchisedec, the offering of Isaac by Abraham, the passover, even the offering of Abel take on new meaning when the concepts in those verses are understood.

Hebrews 9 becomes, rather than a mystery, clear for all (whose eyes have been opened by the Holy Spirit) to see. Without an understanding of the eternal sacrifice, the eternal offering of the Lamb of God, many verses in that chapter remain a mystery or are misinterpreted. For example,

For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. (Heb 9:24)...οὐ γὰρ εἰς χειροποίητα εἰσῆλθεν ἅγια Χριστός ἀντίτυπα τῶν ἀληθινῶν ἀλλ' εἰς αὐτὸν τὸν οὐρανόν νῦν ἐμφανισθῆναι τῷ προσώπῳ τοῦ θεοῦ ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν

In your statement, The changes to the Mass after Vatican II unfortunately clouded this aspect of Catholic Eucharistic theology somewhat, but this stunning fact of the One Sacrifice is actually what the Church believes about the priest and his role, is all too true. In the traditional ad Orientem orientation, the sacrificial nature of the Mass is far clearer, while in the versus populum orientation, the memorial and passover meal nature of the Mass is emphasized.

But there is one thing, Livius, that I would take issue with in your post. You said, the non-bloody repetition of the same sacrifice, in what I believe to be a misstatement on your part (please advise if I'm mistaken). It is, in fact, a re-presentation. And if we look at Rev 13:8, we, in fact, can see that the ongoing sacrifice from the foundation of the world is brought, by the power of the Holy Spirit, down from Heaven onto the altar. As we can see from the old mass far clearer, then, the priest, acting in persona Christi, offers the body of Christ, made present in the appearance of bread and wine, to the Father. As shown in Rev 5:6 and in Rev 13:8 (as quoted above), this is no new sacrifice. It is an opportunity that God, in his manifest goodness, has provided to his creation, to take part in the continual sacrifice and offering that is ongoing, even now, in Heaven.

40 posted on 06/17/2007 10:08:55 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: livius
Thanks for the clarification Livius, and I think you're right that it is an important one.

Yet may I ask where we are told that the Spirit empowers us in this way? The NT lists numerous gifts and activities of the Holy Spirit, but I'm not aware of any reference to acting persona Christi in his sacrifice.

Through the best of intentions, Catholicism has allowed itself to accumulate traditions and trappings that are not grounded in the word of God (as most human institutions will... thus the need to constantly correct and rebuke one another when necessary). The difficulty is that these create stumbling blocks for those seeking after Truth.

By having a 'priesthood' as the repository of knowledge and authority, we create a laity who are children beneath their father. Yet we are clearly told that we are to have only one head and one Father. Christ speaking to his Disciples and others says, "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi', for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father', for you have one Father, and he is in heaven." (Matthew 23:8-9)

Honor and glory should not be given to men, but to God to whom it belongs.
42 posted on 06/17/2007 10:24:22 AM PDT by DragoonEnNoir
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To: livius

Thanks.


98 posted on 09/07/2010 5:22:35 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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