Red herring. As if you folks don't have SSPX, sedevacantists, the Palmarians, and various other Traditionalists. We Protestants don't consider many of the fringe churches which reject core Reformation doctrine "Protestant" any more than you consider the above "Catholic." (and please don't trot out the fictitions "30,000 Protestant Denominations baloney either as it's well-documented how bogus that claim is).
Not to mention the fact that to say the Roman Catholic Church is 100% unified on all doctrine is simply not true. While she may be unified on certain of her core doctrines, there is much variation on secondary and tertiary issues.
And feel free to link me to any document of the mainline Protestant denominations in which they claim to be the one true church to the exclusion of all others, or redact the statement.
There's nothing productive in spreading fiction about each other's churches, friend...unless you're looking to produce a fight.
Question: If one thing is clear, it's that there is one, single, visible Church that Jesus founded. This multitude of competing, conflicting denominations is no sign of God's work; therefore, it must be the work of the Evil One. Somewhere in the midst of these 30,000 denominations, there is one true church, and the rest are in sin and rebellion.
Answer: The "thousands-of-denominations" argument is very often employed to prove all sorts of things. Here are some citations from letters received from other Catholics:
How can all these denominations claim to follow the Bible yet all come to different conclusions? How can I possibly know which one of those above teach the truth when they can't even agree on what the Bible says? The Bible alone has created so much havoc in this world.
If there is only one Church, why are there so many Protestant denominations? Possibly many thousands throughout the world, as compared to only one Catholic Church? I do see it as a sign of God's judgment that there are close to 30,000 Protestant denominations.
The Bible alone can be dangerous. In fact, the Bible alone IS dangerous. Look at Protestantism: 100,000 different interpretation of the Bible, 100,000 contradictions, 100,000 different denominations claiming to have the key.
Peter said that no prophecy of the Scripture is for private interpretation. This is why you have 30,000 different Protestant denominations that all believe differently from one another. This alone should give you a clue that Protestantism is not the true Church of Jesus Christ.
So, the existence of many Protestant denominations supposedly proves that the Sola Scriptura is dangerous, that we should not try to understand the Bible for ourselves, that the church of Rome is the one true church, and of course, all the other churches are false.
Elsewhere I have written on the significance of the heterogeneity among Christians. (See That They May Be One and Disagreement among Protestants). Here I simply want to make one important addition, namely, that the allegation so often repeated by Catholic apologists that there are 20,000 to 30,000 Protestant denominations is simply FALSE . . . not to mention the double standard employed, for the Roman Church is not exactly united. There are untold factions and divisions, and diverse understanding of doctrine within Catholic groups and by different Catholic theologians and individuals.
In an article entitled "30,000 Protestant Denominations?", Evangelical apologist Eric Svendsen exposes the falsehood of this fabrication. Briefly:
*Svendsen shows that the source of this figure is the World Christian Encyclopedia (David A. Barrett; Oxford University Press, 1982).
*Barrett cites a figure of 20,780 denominations. However not all of them are Protestants. According to Barrett, Protestants account for 8,196 (and incidentally, Roman Catholics account for 223).
*However, even this figure of eight thousand Protestant denominations is misleading, for Barrett defines "distinct denominations" as any group that might have a slightly different emphasis than another group. The distinction is made on the basis of jurisdiction, rather than differing beliefs and practices.
*Barrett breaks down the Protestant bloc into twenty-one major "traditions" which are much closer to what we usually mean by the word "denominations." It is interesting that Roman Catholics are subdivided into sixteen such "traditions."
*Svendsen concludes, "In short, Roman Catholic apologists have hurriedly, carelessly - and, as a result, irresponsibly - glanced at Barrett's work, found a large number (22,189), and arrived at all sorts of absurdities that Barrett never concluded."
I for one will sleep much more soundly tonight knowing the number is closer to 8,000 than 30,000.
John 11:35. "Jesus Wept."
I have a question about your tagline: Jerry Falwell: Now a Calvinist in Glory
I thought Baptists were free-will types, not predestination types. (not Pelagian denial of original sin, but that elected had to ultimately exercise his free will to accept that election)(this is in opposition to the concept of reprobation where God decides from the foundation of the world that a certain person was going to hell)
I may not be expressing myself all that well (the different Protestant soterologies is confusing to me, with due respect).
Don’t take all that much time in answering, as it’s just an academic curiosity for me. But if you have a moment, I’d appreciate a clarification.
There’s nothing productive in spreading fiction about each other’s churches, friend...unless you’re looking to produce a fight.
= = =
PREACH IT BRO! PREACH IT!
Witness the title of this thread. They could have made it a caucus easily.
Yet we are accused of baiting.
Do we need to start logging such examples in a journal? Sigh. ‘Tis not the way of Love, to keep a record of wrongs.
Well, the “Catholic” groups that you mentioned are not considered Catholic. They’re not in communion with the Church, and Catholics are not permitted to receive Communion in their churches.
As for Protestants, who is to decide? I’m not sure what constitutes “core Reformation doctrine.” But I’m sure it would be a real surprise to some of the flakier little charismatic country churches around here that they’re “not Protestant,” because they certainly consider themselves to be so. The schismatic formerly Catholic groups you mentioned above, however, know perfectly well that they are not in communion with Rome.
The only thing the Church has to be unified on are the core doctrines. There are many issues where there is legitimate difference and speculation; after all, doctrines are usually defined in response to a challenge, and until something appears that makes those issues important, they remain speculative matters (as long as this speculation does not go outside of the range inherently permitted by the core doctrines).
You may have been reading some of the discussions of the liturgical forms lately: these are areas where there is legitimate difference of opinion, and even variation in practice. But then there are groups, such as the SSPX, that go beyond that, and then they become schismatic, and separate themselves from the Church by rejecting its authority. So you see there is an authority to reject, and the consequence of rejecting it is that you do not merely become a “dissident Catholic group,” you become not Catholic at all and are outside of the Church.
Yada, Yada, Yada! How many times have I seen this????? :-)